#174 Tracing the Evolution of Business Technology: From Mainframes to Mobiles and Beyond With Chris Davidson

0:00:01 - Mehmet
Hello and welcome again to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased to have someone who I share a lot with him, actually because we both work in technology. Chris, thank you very much for joining me today. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do? 

0:00:18 - Chris
Well, pleasure. Thank you very much for inviting me. And yes, I too am an IT bot. It seems remarkable to say so now, but I really did start working in IT before IT even existed. Wow, it was. It was called computing or it was called data processing, and in those days IBM used to have a division, a whole division of the company, called DPD data processing division. The term IT simply had not been invented. The IBM personal computer did not exist. You never find mobile phones in the Internet, nor the rest of it. So it was a long time ago, but it was a fascinating. It's been a fascinating journey for me just to see how everything has developed, and quite rapidly, quite rapidly. When I'm speaking to people, I talk about a pendulum and a clock. You know that swings backwards and forwards. 

This idea of a pendulum and I said that when I joined the IT, the IT sector, the pendulum was right over to one side and computing was eye-wateringly expensive, Very, very difficult. Most of the time it didn't work. You know there were a lot of bugs that had to be fixed all the time and it was the preserve of young engineers who spoke a language that nobody understood. And then between 1980 and about 1990, early 1990s, the pendulum swung all the way the other way Right, and computing became a lot cheaper. We had the personal computer sitting on everybody's desks. These personal computers were loaded with software that was very powerful personal productivity, software like Lotus One, Two, Three, the brand spanking new Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Word and what have you. 

Websites were just about appearing. The internet was around the corner in 1990. And it was this explosion of productivity and everything became cheap and easy to do and we all assumed that it would stay that way. But that's not what's happened. Since then the pendulum has swung back in the other direction, back towards the complexity that I remember when I joined the sector back in 1980. And a lot of the challenges I think arise from the fact that not many people have kind of kept pace with that increasing difficulty. There's an assumption that OIT is easy and cheap nowadays. 

0:03:13 - Mehmet
No, it's not it's difficult. Exactly, it's more challenging than any time before. So, chris, with this long time and with this very long experience in IT, how have you seen the relationship? Because, at the end of the day and this is something that, because I work on the client side, I work on vendor side and also you will self you know that there's a relationship between business and technology, so how this relationship evolved, especially regarding, for example, websites and their role in communication. 

0:03:51 - Chris
Yeah, ok. So before we get to websites and communication, let's take one step further back and just remember where we were in the early 1980s when we had big mainframe computers. And what did they do? They sat in big companies mostly, and if you looked at the organization chart, there was a data processing manager who, nine times out of ten, reported to the financial controller, and it was the financial controller for the financial director who sat on the board of the company IT because it didn't really exist then. It was still data processing didn't have any representation at a board level. The representation at a board level was through the finance director. Why was that? Well, because the only thing that the computer really did was run the monthly accounts, didn't really do much more. 

You know that's enough in a big company to run the monthly accounts. I'm not suggesting it wasn't a trivial job. You know it was a very important job, but it was a confined job. Now, if we press the fast forward button and we see where is IT nowadays, the answer is it's everywhere in an organization. You can't turn around without tripping over something to do with the IT department. So over the years, in terms of the relationship between business and technology technology. 

Information technology has moved from being a supporting role, doing the monthly accounts or tasks like that, into something that is actually operationally vital, like an e-commerce store. If the e-commerce store goes down, the company stops making money. Well, that's pretty serious. So that's one thing that I think is really important to acknowledge is that IT started off in a supporting role, where you could allow failures to happen. It wasn't the end of the world if the computer stopped working, because, provided you did the monthly accounts on time, that was okay and it didn't really matter if the monthly accounts were one or two days late, really, whereas nowadays it's completely central to the way in which many businesses operate and therefore it is so critical it has to just be correct and be on time all the time. 

So that's one important change, one important change. The other important change is because it has that central role, then, for businesses. Their customers, their clients are interacting with a company's technology every single day, whereas in the time where the computer was just doing the monthly accounts, customers never saw it, customers never knew that there was a computer there. They didn't really need to know. Their needs were still being serviced by business people and printed catalogs and telephone calls and all of this kind of malarkey. And occasionally they would be having a telephone call with somebody who would be sitting in front of a computer screen but the customer didn't have direct access to the technology. Nowadays the customer has direct access to that technology and the expectation is that it's going to be there and that it's going to work. 

0:07:50 - Mehmet
Right, that's correct and that's the big difference. So because I think at that time actually they didn't need to have this intervention, I would say of technology within the business, while now we see that technology drives the businesses sometimes. 

0:08:13 - Chris
Well, yes, technology certainly provides opportunities for businesses to jump on. I mean, just look at the way in which Amazon completely revolutionized publishing, completely revolutionized an entire sector. There are thousands of very successful authors out there nowadays who would never have got a publishing deal would never have been accepted by the traditional publishing houses. 

Amazon came along, gave them an opportunity. Now, I'm not suggesting all of them succeeded. Of course they didn't. You know there are good authors. There are not so good authors, but the good ones have been able to push through and now run self-publishing empires that make them multi-millionaires. And, by the way, they have more knowledge of their readers than they would have had had they eventually been published by a traditional publisher. They are more connected to their readers. 

0:09:30 - Mehmet
Fascinating. Yeah, it's fascinating, and it applies not only for the publishers, like, if you think about anything, even shops. They know about us maybe more than we know, because they keep track of us and they track the data. Now one thing, chris I know that you've run the worldwide digital footprint survey for five years now. What are, I would say, the common pain points, especially for small and medium businesses? That have been highlighted by this survey. 

0:10:08 - Chris
Yeah, so this was interesting. So the worldwide digital footprint survey, you're absolutely right. I've been running it annually for five years, and one thing that I noticed it was quite shocking to note when I first ran the survey was the number of websites that did not have HTTPS. Oh, oh, exactly, yes, it was like, and it wasn't two or three percent, it was half Half, half 50%. So of the thousands of websites that I was looking at annually, half of them did not have HTTPS. 

Now I have to say that is one area that has been cleaned up hugely. So, but now on the last survey, it's still hovering somewhere around about the 13 to 15% don't have HTTPS, which to me, is staggering, and very occasionally I'll come across somebody it is a while since I've heard this, but you still hear it. Very occasionally somebody say oh yes, well, I'm not doing e-commerce, so I don't need that. So let's just let's clear that up for anybody who is listening to us. You absolutely must have HTTPS, you must have a secure website and you signify that to the rest of the world by having an HTTPS license. Why is that? Because Google, amazon, facebook, all of these big companies. They're being beaten over the head by the politicians that we vote into power every year and we are beating up our politicians, our political leaders, saying we want our families to be safe online. 

And so they're saying that's OK, we understand the need for that. Therefore, we are going to say to everybody who uses our services and our networks OK, the free ride is over. Everybody's got to behave properly. You all got to be HTTPS. So that's one thing that you absolutely must have, and it is good to note that all browsers now, all other things being equal, all browsers will actively discriminate against a non-secure site. Right, right, so you can expect to fall down in the rankings if you don't have HTTPS. That's the first big point. 

0:12:42 - Mehmet
Yeah. So before we continue on the rest of findings, just a note from me. So I make the similarity between having an HTTPS and the certificate and you carrying an ID. So if I go and browse today, if even you are, I don't know, like one of the biggest shops or you are the biggest restaurant, you are the biggest logistic company, whatever and you give me your website I'm talking personally and I go there and, as you said, chris, the browser will hit me with this warning that you are now visiting a website which is not certified. This would be a question mark for me. Oh, who are these guys Right? So it's like as if someone is passing in the road and ask me what's your name and I say my name is Mehmet and I say, okay, can you prove it Right? And I need to show him an ID and this website. You know. 

Certification, the HTTPS idea, like because some, as you said, some people they have the misconception. Oh well, people, they don't need to log into one to my website. There's no password there. It's not just about the password. So this is very, very important. So what are the other points like from the survey, chris? 

0:13:52 - Chris
Well, so the other one would be this device, the mobile phone. 

So, you absolutely must have a site that works on mobile. Now let's just be very clear as to why that is. I'm not saying that just because you know I'm a geek who likes designing websites. That's not the point. The point is that Google has clearly said that they now only index the mobile version of your website. It's the only version that they are interested in. They don't bother looking at the desktop version anymore. 

So the impact of this is a fairly significant one, but it is natural, if you're, if you're having a website designed, that at some point in time the designer will show you this beautiful site on a big 24 inch monitor or something and it will look absolutely glorious. That is irrelevant. The first thing you do is get your mobile phone out and look at it on the mobile phone. It's the only thing that matters from Google's perspective. Now let's just look at it from a human perspective. I have a client of mine who is a very successful solicitor, or a lawyer solicitor as we call them in the United Kingdom and we look after his website. We do the search engine optimization for him. 75% of his clients look at his website through their mobile phone 75% and he freely acknowledges that 75% of his business revenue comes from his website. So mobile is a huge issue. You've got to have it sorted. 

And that was the other issue that came up was that either people's mobile sites didn't really. It wasn't a question that they didn't look good, but they weren't really working very well. You'd look at them and you would be okay, and then this pop-up would appear that would fill the entire screen saying you know, do you want to sign up for this newsletter or something? And you didn't want to do that, but the pop-up was so big on the mobile phone screen you couldn't find the X to close the pop-up. So the whole website became inoperable on the mobile phone for exactly these kind of issues. So, and then, allied to that, the third one would be load speed, because Google now says that they consider load speed to be a mid-ranking factor, and load speed of mobile sites is always something that you want to be careful about. So make sure the mobile site works properly and make sure that it loads as quickly as it possibly can 100% on the mobile point. 

0:17:11 - Mehmet
I'm surprised myself, like sometimes even big publications you know their ads, I'm not sure if they even tested it on mobile devices and when the pop-up comes in, the website becomes unusable, right, and actually they are losing traffic in this way, in my opinion. And the other thing, you know, the user experience is not nice and I'm not sure, guys, like if anyone is listening or watching this, like when someone designed a website for you, do you test it yourself? Like do you ask yourself okay, if I give something this to a five-year-old or six-years-old, can he browse it? You know easily, and this should be out of the box, right? 

0:17:52 - Chris
So Well, and you bring up a really interesting point there, which is testing. It's one of my bug bears, but it seems to me, particularly in the SME community, when SME organizations having websites built for them, one of the things that website builders do in order to sort of bring the price of the project down to a level that fits with a lot of SME budgets is, frankly, they just take testing out. Yeah. 

They just take it out. They just don't do any, because they make an assumption that technology is so reliable nowadays that it works most of the time, which is true in comparison to when I started in 1980. That is true, but although technology is more reliable, people aren't. 

We still make the same mistakes again, again, again, and so clients often end up being the default testing department, which is quite incorrect. They shouldn't be, but unfortunately that's how it goes. So if you are having website work done for you, either insist that testing is done properly and be prepared to pay for it, in which case you can demand to see the test plan and the results of the test. On all of that, In any event, you should run your own customer acceptance test. C-a-t the cat you know what that word means. 

So if you listen, to that there and you want to know what do I need to do in order to run a proper customer acceptance test. If you just go and Google customer acceptance test and website, you will find enough information for you to check out your own website before you take it off the hands of the developer. 

0:20:00 - Mehmet
Yeah, right, because at the end of the day, the main goal of anyone in this age to have a website is, of course, first to have their branding and to have their presence. If someone Googled them, and of course you want to get clients from there, and this is like common sense I would say you should have a proper website. Because if you don't have a proper website again similar to what I was mentioning about the HTTPS if your website is clunky or it looks like something coming from the early 90s, probably I would say you know what these guys are outdated I'll not do business with them. Right? This is the first impression that I would have, right, chris? 

0:20:46 - Chris
That's also a clear indicator. I mean, another thing you can do is Google your own name and if your website appears below your LinkedIn profile, it's an indicator. You can't be 100% sure, but it's an indicator that your website could be much better optimized. Yeah, 100%, if your website is well optimized, then it should be well above your LinkedIn profile. 

0:21:20 - Mehmet
That's great and, by the way, I just did a life test and I succeeded. That's good, yeah, yeah. So, chris, now I know that while preparing, so why your website doesn't work is an unusual book and quite an undertaking. It's not just a book, it's a toolkit, right? So you mentioned this. Can you explain how you put that all together and where did it come from? 

0:21:53 - Chris
It was an enormous undertaking. It's not that big a book. It is only 40,000 words, so it's quite a usable book in that sense, but it is also a book within a book. So, to explain, I had the Worldwide Digital Footprint Survey and I ran that for five years and that gave me a lot of information and it drew me to the conclusion that the SME community were having challenges, and although some indicators, like HTTPS, were getting better, there were other indicators that just weren't getting better. You know, people weren't using their blogs properly mobile, not very good content all over the place, not very well structured. And then, when the COVID pandemic hit, a lot of companies were struggling then, and so quite a few websites disappeared as companies folded and what have you. 

So I came to the conclusion that the issue here really was to help people optimize their website. That would be the big thing to be able to do if we could help companies optimize what they already had online. There's no point in going around to all of these companies and saying, look, you need to build a new website and that's A that's not fair, and B it's not true. But what you could do is go to these people and say, look, I know you've spent money, I know you've invested in this website, but, to be honest, it's not really working as as well as it could. You know, it's a little bit like riding a bicycle with flat tires it's just hard work. Pump the tires up and life becomes a lot easier. So how do we help these SME businesses pump the tires up on their websites? That's really what it came down to, and so first thing I did is that I built an analysis tool that would analyze the performance of a website and that tool is referenced in the book and I then constructed a model that gave us five different categories of performance, and so the analysis tool fed a score into each of those five different categories. So you could analyze your website and get a percentage score across all those different categories and know exactly where you should start work. You just look for the lowest score and so, okay, I'll start working that bucket. So you go to the bit of the book that deals with that category and that's where you start work. 

I then identified that the biggest problem by far in all SME websites is a lack of depth about the products or services let's just use one word the products that they sell. The content is too thin. So I developed a spreadsheet tool that manipulates text. Again, you can download that. And then I wrote a user manual for that tool and that's embedded within the book. So that's the book within the book, and you get all of that if you have the book. So the first thing you do is you read it. You read the first few chapters, you understand what's going on. You access the tool, get your PDF report, find out where your scores are. Then you know where you need to focus your effort. Then you download the matrix tool for optimizing your content. You run through that matrix tool and that will help you write detailed product descriptions for what it is that you have to sell, and this will just help you develop a better online presence. 

0:26:16 - Mehmet
Yeah, this is very important again like to have these. I think they are now common sense, but I am personally also shocked that a lot of even sometimes not only SMEs to be frank with you, but of course, like SMEs, they are the majority. But I'm surprised that people they think that the website is just taking the box right and they don't do the work that really needs to be done. And this brings me to also to something you mentioned and I think it will resonate with a lot of people, when you said, like the information age is old, so now we should replace it with something else. 

0:27:03 - Chris
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So that was one of my little controversial little chapters in the book, just to get people thinking really. So we do hear it, don't we? Oh, you know, we're in the information age and all the rest of it, and I just like being a little bit controversial every now and then I say, no, I disagree, I don't think we're in the information age at all. I think the information age has been and gone. That's left us behind the information age which ages ago. And then you have to remind people that actually we are in the third decade of the 21st century, the third decade you know, Everybody thinks oh yes, we're in the 21st century. 

No, we're in the third, we're nearly halfway through the third decade of the 21st century. You know, right, incredible how time flies. So the information age has been and gone and we are now in what I call the engage age. We're in the engage age because the quantity of information out there is enormous. 

The exercise I reference in the book is that there's a very interesting radio program in the United Kingdom about farming. I know nothing about farming, but this radio program comes on very early in the morning and sometimes I listen to it just for interest, because I discover all sorts of things that I didn't know anything about because I know nothing about farming. And in one of these programs the farmer being interviewed was talking about how he used drones in his farm. I thought, oh, this is interesting, I only had a big commercial drone. A professional drone operator comes in with a big commercial drone which has ground piercing radar. The drone overflies the field with its ground piercing radar, analyzes the root structure of each individual plant and then in real time instructs a robot to drive over the field to spray nutrients on each individual plant. I mean amazing. 

An amazing use of technology. Now just imagine that you were that farmer and you think, oh, that's fantastic, I want to do that too. And so you go away and you Google commercial drone use for farming or something like that, and I thought I'm gonna do that. This is a very specific search. There won't be many returns. Well, I was buried in information, so I put in what I thought was a very, very specific search using commercial drones, ground piercing radar, looking after plants, farming and what have there won't be many returns on that. It's a very niche market. Nope, it's a massive market, wow. 

So if you're the farmer, you are now buried in information. So how do you, the farmer, process all of that, get through that somehow to make a deal with somebody that is going to cost you thousands of dollars. So you're not gonna do it just on a whim. You are gonna take this seriously. And so if you're the supplier of that service, then it's no point you just pumping out information, because you're just like everybody else. So the information age has been and gone. If you're the supplier, your job is not to give information to the farmer. Your job is to target that farmer and get him or her to engage with you and have a conversation, and the earlier you can do that, the greater the chance that you're gonna close the deal Right. 

0:31:03 - Mehmet
So I have a Not sure if I can call it a theory, but I believe and the way to do it is through a website or to be online Businesses need to become magnets, actually, right. So how to become magnet? Right, so this is this is whoever would out say, find the formula or crack the code, as they say, are the companies and not SMEs. By the way, like this is something because I work in corporate world myself and even the big guys, you know they get Lost in this sometimes because how, how we do, and then they shift to something else, they shift their marketing strategy, something else. But I believe that you need to be the magnet. I was just chatting to someone before we start to record, and he was trying to Sell me something and I said You're not a magnet. Like you don't have something that attract me on your website, like it's, where you have very, as you said, like very thin Information. You're not giving me any Education, you're not giving me any new Think to learn. So sorry, but not sorry, yeah. 

0:32:21 - Chris
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and there are, there are two. There are two car manufacturers who, who have got certainly got this model, I mean too. There are probably more, but there are two that come off, come to head of my mind easily, one of which is BMW with the BMW Mini. 

And the the other is Citroen with the DS 3 and, I suspect, actually fear, with the new fit 500. If you go onto their websites and you you look about, you know they want to show you the new exciting car and all the rest of it. But then they engage you into this whole idea of would you like to build your mini or Whatever it is? And then you select the color and you select the color of the roof and then they say what color cloth Do you want in the seats? And you go through and you build this car and all the time they're showing you three dimensional pictures of this car that you are building and you can turn the picture around and look at it and all the rest of it and of course this is all. 

It's all engaging you in the product All the time, and all the time you are visually engaged in it. But you're learning more about the product as you go through. The product say, only, do you want air conditioning? I'm not conditioning. Do you want this, do you want that? And you all the, even if you don't go through. And they're not expecting to go through an order one, maybe one person in a thousand does, I don't know, but the point is that they are. They are keeping you visually engaged, why they tell you more about the product. 

Yes very nice trick, but I mean very nice trick 100% 100%. 

0:34:01 - Mehmet
So, Chris, how do you see you know the future of websites going now with you know, as you said, we're at a fast-moving yeah and yeah, what's the future from your experience? Where are we heading when it's okay? 

0:34:20 - Chris
Yeah, yeah, I think. I think there's one thing that's gonna happen very rapidly. So, if we consider, consider the mobile phone, so the mobile phone is gonna become the default interface system, if it's not already really. And on the mobile phone we can do at the moment we can do two separate things. We can open a browser and look at a website, or we can open an app, right, and Look at an user nap. So let's look at those two things differently. For the moment. 

What? What are the characteristics of an app? Well, apps are provide you with a very immersive experience. You know, you're, you're there, you're using them. They're very immersive, they're very easy to use. They've got lots of Nice, engaging features about them. So apps are nice like that. 

What's the painful thing about using an app? Oh, you've got to find a store where it is, you've got to download the thing, you've got to install it. Then you find it doesn't work on your mobile phone. Then you know all right. So there are good things about apps. There are bad things about apps. 

Now let's look at websites. What's the good thing about a website? Well, you can get a website on multiple different devices. That's good. What's the bad thing about them? Well, you have to be online to use them. You know, have to be online to use an app. You've got to be online to use a website. 

Now the technology out there already exists that brings these two together and for sure, we will see that very rapidly, I believe take over very rapidly so you'll have a, a web app, if you like. So your website and app will come together into one System. So it it will, in effect, still be a website, in that it will be delivered online, but it will have the appearance of being more app, like on the phone, so it gives you a more immersive experience. It will have the capability to survive because of those characteristics. It will have the capability to survive when you've got a poor network connection, and you will then also be able to do dynamic push notifications if the person using the mobile phone allows you to do it. 

So, for example, say that you are, say you're speaking at a conference, and you have this fact on your website that you are speaking at such and such a conference. And then, while you're there speaking at the conference, there's some logistical change and instead of speaking it in room E34, you're going to be speaking in the conference suite G27. And you have to let everybody know that. Well, in this environment that I've just described, that's a perfect push notification you just send out a little push. 

Everybody says, you know, hi, everybody, I'm speaking at this conference. As you know well, we just had a room change and I'm going to be speaking here on here. Boom, right, dead, simple. And everybody gets it. Oh, that's it. Oh, right, okay, yeah, and then and then, if you just think a little bit further than that, okay, well, you have your weekly email, I have my weekly email, we all do that, and an email is going to live and live and live and live and live, because it just will. 

But actually I could have these little notifications coming through from a net, from Chris, whatever, saying oh, by the way, so, for example, google of just just recently, haven't they? Google have changed to Google Analytics for GA4. Right Beginning of this at the beginning of this July, and you know, for example, that would have been an opportunity for me to just send out some messages. I did by email and what have you and I did with social media posts, but I could have just sent out a message. They're saying hey, folks, remember, you've only got a week to go Before GA4 is, you know, mandatory, and you know I could keep keep in touch with people like that. So I think we'll see that and I think that'll that'll come quite quickly because the technology is already there. All that technology exists, so it's just a question of the, the content management systems, the like Squarespace and what have you enabling it, and it's only a question of time before they do that. 

0:39:20 - Mehmet
So we'll see less apps, you think, chris? 

0:39:27 - Chris
I think you will. I think you'll see very useful operational apps like, for example, my local train service has a fantastic app that let's everybody know what's going on with the trains and what have you. That's going to keep going because they're just operationally useful marketing based apps. I think we'll get rolled into this new Web app environment. 

0:39:58 - Mehmet
Yeah, I think yeah, because you know I was doing to someone and the idea of progressive web apps became like Progressive, right, yeah, so so really, you don't need to push it to the app store, as you said, or to the, whether it's like Apple or Google Play Store or Google Apple Store, you don't need to push it there because, actually, if I a lot of services now, if you go to on the mobile version, if they did it right, yeah, as you mentioned, I can get the same experience and why I need to have an extra app. That, of course, I will not do it manually, but I mean it will get updates and then you need to keep doing the testing on it. 

0:40:38 - Chris
So, yeah, it's like the go to approach, I would say yeah, so I, yes, I think progressive web apps will just become the default. 

0:40:48 - Mehmet
Yeah, yeah, that's. That's 100% true, chris, as we we've coming to close anything you wish, I asked you. 

0:41:00 - Chris
Well, I think that you have. You know, we've had a very interesting discussion so far. You know this is very kind of you to to invite me on to your show. 

0:41:08 - Mehmet
My pleasure. 

0:41:09 - Chris
Yeah, if folks want to know more than they know, the name Chris Davidson and the website is very simple it's chrisdavidsoncouk. That's where you find it will be in the description actually. You'll find the book reference there. You'll find all the tools reference there. Everything's there. So you know that that's the place to go, and I wish people a lot of luck in making their website more effective. That's really what I just want people to get value for money out of their websites. You know? That's the point. 

0:41:38 - Mehmet
That's the point that's also my wish as well, because, again, like even guys, if you're paying like, as they say, pennies, still it's money that you are paying and you should have, as they say, return on investment. So, if investing in something, you should get it and don't, as I mentioned like few minutes back, it's not a tick in the box. Okay, we have a website Because, again, if you don't have a professional website with I'm just trying to recap here with security, loading fast and you can also check Chris website for more insights because he has, like he prepared a nice assessment tool also as well, you can get in touch with Chris and, as usual, what I do, chris and I put your website in the episode description, so, whether it's on the podcasting platforms or on YouTube, so they will be able to see that and if you want to connect with you, they can find out also. So well, thank you very much, chris, for the time today and, as I and each episode, I repeat this because I want your opinion. So, if you are watching or listening and you have any questions or feedback about this episode or the show in general, please give me a shout. 

My email, my link, it in and Twitter handles are very known. It's in the podcast actually profile. You can find me there If you are interested to be a guest on the show, if you have, if you have a startup and you are trying to get out, if you are a business owner and you want to mention about something cool you are doing the city or show. The main goal for us is to get everyone who has something to say related to tech, related to startups, related to SMEs, related to technology, of course, to come on this show and have a great discussion, as I had today with Chris. Thank you very much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed and we'll meet again in an episode. Thank you, thank you, bye, bye. 

Transcribed by https://hello.podium.page/?via=mehmet