#188 Mark Graban on The Power of Lean & Continuous Improvement in Diverse Industries & Startup

0:00:02 - Mehmet
Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased to have with me best-selling author and the long-time consultant, mark Graban, who is joining me from the US today. Mark, thank you very much for your time and being here on the show today. You are one of the top voices on LinkedIn. A lot of people know you but just in case you know, if someone sees you or is listening to you first time, can you just introduce yourself to the audience? 

0:00:30 - Mark
Yeah, well, sure thing, mehmet, and thank you for the invitation to be here. Thank you for the kind introduction. My name is Mark Graban. I'll try to summarize kind of my background and what I do now. So I'm an engineer, industrial engineer, with an MBA. 

I thought I wanted a career in manufacturing and that was the focus of about the first 10 years of my career, enjoyed it but then ended up having an opportunity in 2005 to do work in healthcare. You know hospitals and different healthcare settings, trying to apply engineering and systems improvements, principles, management practices kind of coming from manufacturing into healthcare. And so you know, nowadays I do a number of things. I have my own company where I do writing and publishing, speaking, some coaching and consulting. I've also been affiliated in different ways with the technology company, a software company called KainNexus, for about gosh 12 years now as that company has grown. So never a full-time role with KainNexus, but involved in different ways. 

I have a small ownership stake and, you know, as I have a chance to share a little bit in the book, you know, I think really proud of the culture that the co-founders and other leaders at KainNexus have built and maybe that's something that we can delve into today. So my career has certainly taken different turns than I wouldn't have expected. You know an earlier stint with the startup in the early 2000s. That was a totally different, you know, approach. You know a different era of entrepreneurship, I guess. But then you know a longer stint here with KainNexus, including, you know, the present day. So that's kind of a summary of what I do. I do podcasting. I've written and published a number of books, including my new one, the Mistakes that Make Us that's great. 

0:02:24 - Mehmet
Thank you very much for sharing this with us. And you know, like you answered my first question, by the way you know about you know the transition, because the first thing I wanted to ask you about you know what inspired you actually to do this transition from an engineer to you know going into the path you are in today and you know helping businesses from a consulting perspective. But you know one of the things I want to ask you, because usually us consultants, you know we have to deal with multiple sectors, so for yourself to us, from manufacturing to healthcare, to technology, so how you can, you know, describe this experience and how it actually enriched your overall also like knowledge, and you know the way you deal with your clients. 

0:03:10 - Mark
Yeah, I mean I think there's a couple dimensions to what you're asking there. One is going from being an employee of companies to being a consultant. That transition wasn't as difficult because I was always in an internal consulting role focused on improvement projects of different types, focused on helping implement elements of a lean culture, if you will, you know, a lean management approach in organizations. I've only had two I will admit to having only two very short stints as being technically a people manager, but, you know, always working with leaders in organizations to help them with improvement. And so then you know, I had an opportunity into, well, the first technology company. A lot of that was sort of a consulting role with the software customers. But then again, 2005, getting to join this consulting team within Johnson Johnson. I had a consulting group that worked with medical laboratories and hospitals. You know, I think people in healthcare wouldn't have hired me, the individual, but they were willing to hire Johnson Johnson and you know that was a great team to come be a part of and to build trust and build some experience with healthcare organizations. 

But you know, I think it's interesting whenever we look at trying to bring ideas from one sector to another. I think it's sort of natural that people might be a little defensive. You know, eric Rees and others bringing ideas from Toyota into technology companies under the label of lean startup. Like sometimes people are defensive of say, well, you know, technology companies are different. I'm like, well, that's true, but we can still maybe come to agreement that ideas are transferable. 

People in healthcare are absolutely correct when they say, well, a hospital is not a factory. I'm like, well, that's a true statement. Patients are not cars. And you know, I think we have to be careful. You know, if we're pushing tools in too literal of a, you know, transfer from one industry to another, we could get in trouble because we might end up misapplying the tool if we're using it in a different context. But I think when we're transferring principles and mindsets and behaviors, I think that's much more transferable. So, you know, lean and healthcare does not mean treating the patient like a car. It means treating the patient better than they might be treated today and it means taking care of the people doing the work in that healthcare setting. So I think I mean, look, I've made mistakes, I'm sure, going from one setting to another. But I try to be mindful of not forcing change on people but to try to help bring them along to understand okay, these ideas are transferable. Or let's try it and see. 

0:06:08 - Mehmet
Yeah, yeah, you talked about lean a lot and I'm, you know, fan of you, know the whole, you know, because there are, like other concepts before lean. You know, and I always share some quotes from the lean startup, from Eric book, and you know it has its own roots in manufacturing mainly we know this but it starts to apply also on startups. Now, from your experience and you talked about, like, applying it to healthcare do you think it is also relevant to apply it on any kind of startups and also maybe even on small medium businesses? 

0:06:50 - Mark
Yes, I would say so and I can point to. You know experience with with Kinectsys over, you know the last 12 years as a startup that's now evolved into I mean, it's still a high growth. You know small, it's still a small company. It's not a unicorn, but that's okay. Not every startup has to be a unicorn. 

But you know, within Kinectsys there are a number of applications of key principles that we would say are inspired by Toyota or lean. You know a couple of them being, you know the site, this idea of customer focus. That's something that exists or should exist in every setting, of making sure, you know you really deeply understand your customer's needs, that you realize that customers define value, they vote with their purchase decisions. I think you know internally there are practices related to, let's say, agile software development, of doing, you know, smaller batches, more iterative development and releases of technology and new versions of a web-based software. But I think internally, in the culture, as I highlight in the book, from the beginning KainNexus was very focused on trying to foster and cultivate a culture of continuous improvement, which is an idea that comes from Toyota and other organizations. 

Our customers, our KainNexus customers, are trying to build a culture of continuous improvement. That's what our software helps support. So a culture of continuous improvement embraces a number of mindsets, including the idea of not being too proud of what you have or the way you do things, that everything can be improved and that there's no shame in that there's people are encouraged and celebrated for pointing out opportunities for improvement. Internally, we have a new sales executive who's going through his onboarding and I heard him talking the other day about part of his onboarding specifically asks him and other new employees to point out opportunities for improvement in the onboarding process. Like we're trying to instill that from the beginning, that everything can be improved, everybody has a voice and then, as we, you're really highlighting the book. I think part of that culture of continuous improvement another element that comes from Toyota is a culture of psychological safety, a culture of learning from mistakes, of not just encouraging but rewarding people for speaking up in different ways. That's to me what helps drive employee satisfaction. 

It helps you retain talent, it helps you be more innovative and more successful as a company, so we're not trying to copy all of the detailed technical tools from. Toyota really more about the culture. 

0:09:49 - Mehmet
Yeah, and next, spot on, because, speaking of culture now, in your opinion, how you know leaders? Because some leaders sometimes they struggle to create this environment where you know they feel safe, I can share my ideas. Maybe the boss will be angry, will be mad, maybe they will mock my idea. So how do you think leaders can create, you know, this safe environment, as you describe it, to foster such culture? 

0:10:18 - Mark
Yeah, well, I think you know there's two main pieces and I'll give credit Timothy Clark, who is the researcher, author of a great book called the Four Stages of Psychological Safety. I've learned a lot from Tim, formally and informally, and you know citing credit him in the book, and I think Clark, I think Tim Clark, is really insightful in saying there's really two main things that leaders need to do to help others feel safe in the workplace. The one is modeling the behaviors that you want to see. So, for example, when a leader like Greg Jacobson, who's one of the co-founders and CEO of KainNexus, or other leaders at KainNexus, admit mistakes openly, they admit when they're wrong and they don't do that to shame themselves, they do it in the spirit of transparency and learning and growth right. 

So if somebody admits a mistake, part of that discussion is well, here's why I made the decision I did, here's why I think it didn't pan out. Maybe I made a bad assumption. Here's the learning and here's the adjustment and here's what we do different, moving forward. So, like leaders, leading by example, I think is a very important first piece, and then the second piece is what you were touching on them. It is then rewarding others for following your lead, right? So if the CEO admits mistakes because they probably feel safer to do so and let's say, unless the board or the investors get upset with them, right, the CEO has more built-in safety, probably because of their position. 

They can then encourage and set the tone for employees who might be a little bit afraid to speak up, not because they're afraid of Greg or other leaders at KainNexus, but they maybe have experiences at other companies where they did get in trouble for challenging the status quo or for saying things could be better, and so modeling those behaviors, encouraging others to lead the way, but then making sure as a leader that you react and respond in ways that are rewarding as opposed to punishing, that starts building, I think, kind of a positive cycle of strengthening psychological safety over time. 

0:12:40 - Mehmet
Yeah, I think we have seen also some companies that they deployed successfully in their culture right Like where even they give their teams time to work on projects that they know previously that these projects might be a failure. And sometimes I remember, like I had one guest who talked about the Amazon day one approach, for example, also like where because if they reach day two, that means like they are doing some mistakes over there. It's really like the culture I believe is something very important to keep people motivated to. Actually it drives innovation and this is why, talking about the books, we mentioned the books and I know you have a new lunch towards last month right, the mistakes that makes us. Can you little bit? And it's very interesting, the title is very, I would say it hooked me. So can you give our audience a sneak peek into its central premise and why it's crucial for leaders and managers? 

0:13:45 - Mark
Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, the subtitle of the book tries to summarize it. It's about cultivating a culture of learning and innovation. Using the word cultivating in sort of an intentional way and that word was a gift from an old friend of mine who did the artwork for the cover with me. Originally, I was using a word like creating. 

And I started thinking about it like well, creating a culture, that almost sounds like more of a one-time act. We create something Like oh, maybe there's an implication of ongoing creation, like thinking of words, like building I'm like that's a little too mechanical. Like you can build a house, so cultivating. To me it's more like so one of the core themes is thinking of culture like a garden, of something that you have to continually nurture and feed and water and fertilize and protect from pests of different types. It's an ongoing process and I think culture is similar. But I think some of the core themes of the book is one of the core themes is we all make mistakes, or, as many of the guests on my podcast, my favorite mistake entrepreneurs and CEOs have pointed out, especially when you're trying to innovate, if you're not making any mistakes, you're not pushing the envelope far enough, you're not real and if you're being too safe. So then we think of, well, what happens in an organizational culture that might drive people and then therefore the company to really play it safe, as if quote-unquote failures or mistakes are punished. And so one of the core themes of the book is this idea of shifting from punishing mistakes to embracing, if not cherishing or celebrating the mistakes are more importantly, maybe, celebrating the learning, right? So, um, you know there's. 

There's one idea I like to poke at a phrase you hear a lot, I think, in. You know, entrepreneurship circles, maybe coming out of Silicon Valley, fail early, fail often Like I don't. That to me that's not really the right way of saying it. I think if we make mistakes early and learn, we're more likely to succeed. Right, we don't want to be repeating or excusing the same mistakes over and over again. You know, if anything, you know one other, I think, core theme of the book is it's better in this. You know, and I'll cite you know, lean, startup and other entrepreneurship methodologies. 

This idea of doing small tests in the market yeah, this idea comes from Toyota, even if it's continuous improvement in a manufacturing setting, of doing a small test of change and being an experimentalist, right. So instead of saying I have an idea that I know is great, let's roll it out everywhere, you might say, well, wait a minute, I might be wrong. Let's test the idea, let's reduce the risk. Let's test the idea on a small scale, let's. Let's adjust from early mistakes or, you know, opportunities to make the idea even better before we start scaling and I think that's one of the other themes that hopefully comes through in the book. Takeaways you know I like to make these takeaways. 

0:17:12 - Mehmet
I liked when you mentioned that it's something continuous, it's not like one one time act, because some people they think I take from a little bit technology consultancy approach, we see this oh, we got to do digital transformation, we're going to create a digital transformation strategy. No, it's not creation, it's like it's a journey, that it's like you need to keep doing it, we need to keep fixing it, we need to take the customer feedback. So this is brilliant, I would say. And the other one, when you mentioned about, you know, failing. I think the famous one is fail fast. They say yeah, and I advise everyone you know to read these books, including your book also, mark, because there you find out that the best actually products or services that we use today, they were able to bring them to what they are Because they have failed and they kept testing until they had the best product or service that we use. So this is something I keep repeating on the show. 

Now, while preparing, you know, I saw something, you know, which also caught my eyes, actually, and a little bit regarding management or, let's say, leadership. So you know why you it's a mistake for executives to try to explain the up and downs in business metrics. I mean, you know there's KPI things and you know, like, what's your take on this? I love this one, so this is why I asked you, sure Sure. So my previous book is on this topic. 

0:18:40 - Mark
So it's called Measures of Success. The subtitle of that book also tries to sort of summarize the idea. The subtitle is React Less, lead Better, improve More. And you know, to your question, I think it is a mistake when leaders are reacting, if not overreacting, to every up and down in some sort of business measure, whether that's a company like Toyota or a startup, you know, like KainNexus, there are some measures that basically just fluctuate around an average. You know the ratio of the average to the average to the average, you know, is about. You know the average to the average. 

And then I'm going to turn back to—You know that was an initial question. You know, I think so many people in the in other ways of okay, well, that number drops a little bit compared to last month. That could be noise, if you will. We're trying to separate signal from noise. And if we're reacting to all the noise and all of our metrics, that just ends up consuming a lot of time when there might be certain key metrics that have changed in a statistically meaningful way and that's the metric to react to. But if we're reacting to everything that got a little bit worse than the last month, that just chews up a lot of time. It distracts us from what might be the core business issue. 

So there's a method that I pass along through that book called Process Behavior Charts. It's a form of what others might know as Statistical Process Control or Control Charts that we can apply to business measures. And basically you create a run chart or a line chart of your metric. You calculate an average to see, well, okay, is it just, is it fluctuating around an average or it might be fluctuating around linear growth? But let's say it's a metric that is fluctuating around a stable horizontal average. Then you calculate two key lines that you then draw on the chart a lower limit and an upper limit that tell us, okay, if that metric continues fluctuating the way it has been, it's going to stay within those lines, within those hard rails. So now, if the metric suddenly goes above or below those limits, that's a time to react. 

You know, if we have eight consecutive data points that are all above the baseline average or below the baseline average, that's another sign of a signal, right? So if we look at that chart with Kinectsys over time again, you know that ratio of customer lifetime value to customer acquisition costs. There have been times where there's been step. Function increases yeah, you know that's worth explaining. Those are, you know, significant changes to the business. Trying to explain those shifts in performance or those signals is a far better use of time than trying to explain every small up and down. Don't try to explain the signal. Do try to understand. And oh, don't I said that wrong, my mistake. Don't try to explain all of the noise. Do try to understand and explain the signals. 

0:22:15 - Mehmet
And also I understood from you, mark, like give it some time also, right, like I'm talking here maybe from, let's say, sales number, revenue number perspective, so maybe there was a major event that happened. So this is why you know the MRR was down this month. So let's wait, like maybe to see next month if things get better. But if you have like maybe three, four, five months consecutively where numbers are drawn, so you need to look at these numbers. So this is why I understand from you, if I'm not mistaken right, well, some of it is taking a little bit looking at a little bit longer time horizon. 

0:22:48 - Mark
But there's another mistake a lot of businesses make of just literally comparing two data points. So I'll say here's the number this month, here's what it was last month, or we'll compare it to the same month a year ago. Like those comparisons can be really misleading or at least just incomplete. I'd rather see 12, 24 months more data points so we can really look to see are there statistically meaningful differences or trends? 

0:23:14 - Mehmet
And I think this makes sense, especially with startups, because we know, you know this famous graph where, in startup, you have, like you know, first you go a little bit up, then you go down, and I think I'm getting this from the book you know where they, where you know the lean startup, where you know they show the graph where it's go up and then sometime you have to go down and then you go up again and then you go down until you have this exponent, what they call it. It's not exponential, it's like steady growth, we call it right. So a hundred percent on this. Now, shifting a little bit, mark, you've built an impressive personal brand through blogging and podcasting. Can you share this journey and any advice for anyone who's looking to do the same, including myself? 

0:23:58 - Mark
Yeah, welcome, you know, to the podcast world. That's a really interesting question. I'll try to reflect a little bit, hopefully in a way that's helpful for others. I started my blog, which is at leanblogorg. I started that early 2005. And that has evolved and changed over time. Both you know the platform and sort of you know, maybe, my use of it. But, yeah, that really helped establish some greater visibility. You know that was a pre-social media era. Now that I think back and reflect upon it. So that blog, though, did lead pretty directly to an opportunity to write my first book, which was called Lean Hospitals, and I did that in 2008. I had kind of the unusual opportunity where a publisher reached out to me because I had been referred to them. They were looking for somebody to write a book, you know, introduction to lean healthcare, and somebody who had been a reader of my blog, who I knew a little bit, was having a conversation with the publisher and made a recommendation for me to do that. So you know, my book wasn't. 

A lot of times people write great blog posts and it's a series of essays and they can collect those and turn them into a book. That's one reasonable approach. That's not the exact path that I took. I wrote Lean Hospitals. Really, you know from scratch. But writing a blog, you know, I think it's practice writing. You know practice articulating ideas and with the blog, especially back then, people would comment much more often, like now. The discussion tends to happen on LinkedIn About whatever I've posted. But you get feedback and I think that's helpful. So you know, thinking of a book as an entrepreneur, you need those cycles of iteration and getting feedback about what's clear, what's compelling, what's helpful and incorporating that into what's then the finished product. So there was blogging and that progression through writing. 

And then I started my first podcast that was focused on lean manufacturing, lean healthcare, lean management. It was 17 years ago this month, so I started July 2006 and I like to say you know it sounds like I'm joking but it's totally true Like I've been podcasting long enough that it was trendy and then it was dying and dead and then it made a comeback, but again, like this was pre smartphone era, when it was a lot more difficult for people to listen to podcasts. I mean, I know if you did the whole, you know you download MP3 files and you drag them over to your. You know your dedicated MP3 player. You know, I think with the smartphone era that really helped podcasts take off and become a lot more common. 

So you know, I've done the style of podcasts for interviewing others. I enjoy that. There's a certain I don't know practice or craft to interviewing people that I enjoy, as opposed to, you know, some people advocate. Well, if you want to establish your brand or be the expert, you could do, you know, a solo podcast where it's you talking. I listen to some podcasts that are of that format but, like for me, being able to invite people on my show to be a guest has been a great learning opportunity. It's a really great networking opportunity. It's a good excuse to reach out to somebody that you want to meet. Please come on on my podcast. So that's, you know, part of the reason I've enjoyed that. 

And then I started. You know it was one of my pandemic projects. I'll hold up Coffee Mug with the logo. My favorite mistake is a podcast that I started September 2020. And then that podcast really inspired the book. The mistakes that make us the. You know the podcasts in the book are related. There's a lot of stories from my podcast guests in the book, as it turned out. So, yeah, podcasting has been a lot of fun. You know 480 episodes of the Lean podcast over 17 years and 220 episodes of my favorite mistakes. So that's 700 episodes plus some other podcasting projects that have done here and there. 

0:28:34 - Mehmet
Nice. And the reason I wanted you to mention this? Because I want to encourage entrepreneurs, startup founders, to do one of two things Either they start a podcast themselves or to come on podcasts right. So for me, by the way, it's funny enough that I, when I decided to start the podcast, I thought like I gotta do solo. So I was not. I was not sure can I do interviews? And then all of a sudden, people start to reach out hey, why we don't you know talk? And I said, okay, let me try. And then you know, after the second or third, I said you know what? 

I'm enjoying this more, as you said, exactly for the same reason. First, I'm learning a lot from people like yourself. Second, people are enjoying also as well. They said, like, really, like, from where are you getting this? Yeah, like, okay, there are platforms where you can find. But also sometimes I'm reaching out myself to people that I wish I have. 

Of course, not all of them, I know busy schedules and so on, and sometimes which is, I think, it's good sign I'm getting reached out by people who say can we come to the podcast? Of course, you can be my guest. Like, stay learning experiences enjoyable. I advise really everyone to do it, whether you want to be on whole side, guest side, like it's your, it's your choice. But I think also you mentioned a little bit social media and you started in the pre social media phase. So how, linkedin? Mainly because you know, for me, linkedin is my favorite to go platform, although, like I have to be everywhere and so on, but I mean LinkedIn is my go to to reach audience. So how, how, you know you leverage this also to build this thought leadership and you know what tips you can again give, you know, for people who are interested to expand their influence on LinkedIn. 

0:30:28 - Mark
Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know if I have that all figured out, so I'm trying to think or reflect on what tips you know I would give to others. You know you mentioned earlier being included in a program they now call Top Voices, launched as LinkedIn influencers up until this year, I think, is when they made the change and which is good, because I hear influencer, I think more like Instagram, posing with photos of products and endorsing and you know it's a different idea on on LinkedIn. So you know I've managed. Thanks, you know, thanks to LinkedIn. I'm appreciative. 

You know that they designated me as one of those quote unquote top voices at least a decade ago and because of that they recommend to people pretty proactively oh you should follow this guy more, and so that's really helped build, you know, a lot of followers and you know I try, you know I do my best to share things that might be, you know, interesting. You know, sure, inevitably, you know, part of LinkedIn is you share what you're doing professionally and there's that level of I feel like this question of like am I being too overly promotional or? You know, and you know trying to. You know that the judgment call around that I guess right. But I mean, I think there's good guidelines that I think during a book launch maybe I've gotten away from of like having a good ratio of sharing industry articles and sharing, you know, other perspectives that you think are interesting and worth sharing and not making it all about yourself and I'm saying that out loud is a reminder to myself, I apologize. 

That book launch phase maybe has shifted the balance to posting more about the book launch, but you know, I think, just you know, trying to share ideas or you know, even sharing articles from the news and adding some of your thoughts or commentary to it can be a helpful strategy. And you know, engaging people, engaging with people in the discussion, and I think sometimes some of the best learning comes from somebody. You know, when somebody disagrees with you, right, something I've tried to get better at, be better about is disagreeing or sharing a contrary opinion in a way that's constructive and helpful Right, and try to do so in a way that you know you can sort of state confidently well, here's what I believe, or here's what my experiences are, here's what I was taught, and lay it out there in a way that doesn't completely diminish. Maybe someone has a different experience. 

Yeah, so I think you know there's a difference in saying well, my experience is, this is different than saying you're wrong, yeah. 

0:33:29 - Mehmet
Yeah, yeah, like it's my way also as well, mark, and I think like even maybe it's funny, but even sometimes, when people reach out, you know, like people who send you these emails in LinkedIn and trying to position something, so I feel a duty that I need, even if I don't like that, but I feel a duty that I need to tell them in a polite way. And sometimes what I do, you know, I do it in a funny way. So just yesterday, someone you know was positioning for me a service that I offer and they said, oh, so now you decided to offer the service to people who work in the same field. And I put a smiley face and you know, the other person said, oh, thank you very much. I did not notice this and I'm really sorry because I need to do more research. Yeah, so, and again, even in public, when there are comments, I like to be constructive, you know, as much as possible and, yeah, 100%. This helps. 

And again, this is I'm saying is not to for me or about Mark only if you are a founder, even if you are a tech executive, because we target these audits as well it's good that you keep engaging. Don't be shy, guys Like I'm talking to CTOs here really, like techie people, don't be shy. Like show your expertise on, you know, different platforms podcasts, blogs because it will build your personal branding and I'm a big believer now on personal branding. It's something that opens a lot of doors for you. So, guys, just do it, as we almost done Mark. So, lastly, like I'm curious to know about any upcoming projects or initiatives you're currently working on and you know what and you know the audience will will be hearing from Mark in the future. 

0:35:13 - Mark
Yeah, Well, you know, the still focus very much on the continued book launch. That's a journey, that that's not a one day or one week event. I just recorded if I went back yesterday to the recording studio to clean up a few mistakes I had made in reading the audio book version, of the mistakes that make us and that's a funny process of you know, being in a recording booth and you have a sound engineer who's listening, like sometimes, as I was reading, I would like clearly, like, okay, I made a mistake, sorry, let's go back, and the engineer would hear it too. There were times when I didn't notice in the engineer would say okay, wait, stop, you said the wrong word Because you know. 

I think you know, if you're reading, you're, you're looking ahead, you're trying to read smoothly and not just be word, word, word, word, word word. I think sometimes, just inevitably, you're looking forwards, ahead to think of how you're going to phrase something and your, your brain and your mouth saying you know the wrong word. So he would stop me. Okay, we'll go back and try it again. But then there were the mistakes that neither of us caught in real time. So then Jeff, the audio engineer, the guy I hired to produce the audio book was going through an editing and listening and, if you will, proof reading and he caught about, you know, one small mistake per chapter, yeah, so I'll come back in and rerecord little things. You know there's, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's something. 

Yeah that's amazing, it happens even with professionals involved. But the audio book will be available, maybe within a month. 

0:36:54 - Mehmet
Nice. 

0:36:55 - Mark
So that'll be available for people who prefer that format. That'll be my first audio. Oh yeah, first audio book. That's the main thing. And then you know I'm working with different organizations. You know, with the new book coming out kind of, you know, increasing number of speaking opportunities, so that's. That's one service that I provide for organizations. Come in and talk with a leadership team or an employee group, you know, to share some of these ideas about, you know, trying to be positive about learning from mistakes and trying to create that culture. That's something I've really enjoyed doing, working with not just healthcare organizations but opportunities to come in and, you know, spend time with and try to share ideas with companies and other industries. That's kind of the other main thing that I'm doing right now. 

0:37:44 - Mehmet
Well, we can find more. Mark, I have the links, but if you want to mention, Well, thanks. 

0:37:49 - Mark
Yeah, the book's website is mistakesbookcom. Or people can go to markgravencom G-R-A-B-A-Ncom, or people can find me on LinkedIn. You know, my name is, thankfully, unique enough. I think there's one other Mark Graven in the United. 

0:38:06 - Mehmet
States. 

0:38:10 - Mark
So if you search, you'll probably find me. 

0:38:13 - Mehmet
Yeah, that's great. Now I have a final question which is a little bit kind of different. Is there anything you wished? I asked you and how you would answer that. 

0:38:26 - Mark
So anything that is and it's funny, like I like to think I'm good at asking questions, which is part of, I think, being a coach or being a podcast host, something I wish you had asked. That's a tough question. 

It's not that tricky I know, but trying to think of what direction. What direction do we take that in? Maybe a question well, no, I was about to ask like, well, why pay attention to Toyota? I think we've touched on that. Can we take that question in sort of more of a personal direction? 

Like, do you have a favorite sport? I don't know, I'm struggling with something else to bring up. So I grew up in the United States. Baseball was really important to me. I know internationally that's not as well known. I'm trying to learn football, or soccer as we would call it here. Didn't really grow up with that sport, it was just starting to become popular. Like a lot of the kids I grew up with played soccer, but I didn't get into that. So I do enjoy though, especially attending live. Going to a baseball game on a nice day or a nice evening, nice way to spend two and a half three hours yeah, enjoy the game, and especially these days of a favorite player show, hey Ohtani. He was a Japanese player who's playing in Los Angeles. He's Amazing and I don't people listening might not care about that and they might say, mark, that's a question we shouldn't ask you because it's Not that interesting. 

0:40:17 - Mehmet
Yeah, but people think sometimes that I am doing it on purpose, to trick, and it's not just because sometimes, you know, I Start to ask a question because one time the guest told me, hey, we didn't touch base on this and they said, okay, sorry, but I thought like I explained what we're gonna talk about. So I decided to come up with this question and you know, a lot of times people just did like yourself. So the other day I had a guest who I asked him and he said, hey, why didn't ask me who is my favorite formula one team or, you know, driver? I said okay, and some people base they get stuck. This is you asked everything like we don't have anything left. So just, I like to put it as a space, really, if I forget something or maybe some purpose, and jump very quickly on. Well, mark, thank you very much for being with me today. I really appreciate the time. I really enjoyed the conversation and again, I would put the links to the book and to Mark's website and his LinkedIn profile in the Episode description. So if you are listening on your favorite podcasting platform, you can find that in description. If you are watching this again, you find it there and Again, as I end every episode, if you have any question, any feedback about this episode or the show in rural, I would love to hear it. 

I would love to know what you are liking, what you are disliking, if you want to see any change, if you want like specific topics to be discussed, and also if you are interested to be a guest with me, I would invite you to come and join me. I don't have any time constraints. Yes, I'm based in Dubai, but you see, mark is in the US. You know I had some guests from Canada, I mean that part of the world. I had people even in New Zealand, on the other side. They are plus 12 hours from me, so I can accommodate the time zones, no worries at all about that. And the aim of the show is to bring you know Mines and expertise similar to Mark and all the guests that I had till now, and spread this knowledge. And you know, even it's the CTO. Again, it's technology, entrepreneurship, startups all coming together. And thank you for tuning in and we'll meet again next episode. Thank you, bye, bye. 

Transcribed by https://hello.podium.page/?via=mehmet