#195 Unraveling Sales Success for Startups with Sanjit Singh

0:00:02 - Mehmet
Welcome back to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased to have joining me from the US, sanjit, thank you very much for being with me today on the show. The way I like to do it is leave it to the guests to introduce themselves and what they are up to. 

0:00:19 - Sanjit
Yeah, sure, my name is Sanjit Singh. So introducing myself, I started with a career in sales for large companies and then started my first business in 2007. My first tech startup that I co-founded with a partner in 2013. I exited that in 19, started another tech company Then. Ever since then, I come to realize that having a background in sales and marketing it makes me a little bit unusual. So a lot of my tech founder friends, who traditionally are technical, began to reach out to me for help with sales and marketing. So that's what I do now. 

I'm a fractional head of sales for early-stage companies, so I'm a head of sales for several companies at once that are early-stage startups. 

0:01:13 - Mehmet
That's great, sanjit. I'll take you again for your time. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Now, sanjit. Myself I've worked with also startups. Currently, in my current role, I meet a lot of founders and I find that this is underrated topic. This is why I wanted to have you on the show today. The first question I want to ask you is how does the approach to business development defer between early-stage startups and more established companies? So because people think, okay, we work in large companies, so we know how to do it, so how this is different in the startup world. 

0:01:58 - Sanjit
Well, it's start-up selling is much harder because you don't have name, brand recognition, you don't have an established product. All the things that help get you in the door aren't there. You don't have in the beginning, you don't have testimonials or success stories to build upon. So that's fundamentally what makes it different, so that makes it much harder to break in. So I would say that's off the top of my head. That's the biggest initial difference that I think people should be aware of. 

0:02:31 - Mehmet
And for being able to do this, building the reputation, getting the testimonials. Who do you think would be the best customer profile? Of course, someone who needs their product, but I mean who would be their ultimate companies to go and see to sell them their product or service? 

0:02:58 - Sanjit
Who would be the best initial customer to sell? That's a great question and I agree with you 100% that this topic is very underrated. And I'd say it's underrated because a lot of the reasons that startups fail the top two reasons fall into no market need and no traction, and they ran out of funds, which means they didn't have traction. So no market need means we didn't do enough free research what we call product market fit work or customer interviews to determine that there was a need and that not only there's a need but people are willing to pay for the product. Secondly, the second reason is they didn't get traction and therefore they ran out of money, which means they weren't able to do to actually make sales, like you're saying. They weren't able to get their first, second, third customer and so on, or they weren't able to get them fast enough. So this is a very important question you're asking and it comes down to this like when I coach people on how to find their like, when I, let's say, I'm mentoring at incubators, which I do in addition to my day job, I coach them on before you go and do interviews, just think to yourself in the marketplace, who should have the most pain right, who should have the most need, who should be willing to pay the most because their problem, this problem, costs them the most money? And so those are some ways to start thinking about which part of the market that you suspect will be a good beachhead market, like early adopters or evangelists, right? And so those are important characteristics. 

To think about People who have the most pain is a very, very important part. And then, of course, when we say early adopter, who's most likely to? Who do we know that tends to adopt technology faster? What industries? Or does industry or, excuse me, just technology diffuse faster, and so on. So these are ways we can use to make a hypothesis, but then, of course, we have to then test that hypothesis and actually go out and talk to the market, and that's something that I don't think any of us like, even us in sales. 

We don't like picking up the phone and getting told no, but I would think that people who are technical and don't do this for a living probably hate it more. But that doesn't make it any less important, right, and so we really have to go out and get out of our comfort zone to go and talk to these people and really find out and I don't think it's a matter of asking them hey, I think you probably have this solution. Isn't my product a great way to solve this problem? That's never how you do product market fit right. You ask them general questions about what they do, tell me about your top, your big problem areas, and then you let them tell you what their biggest problems are. You don't tell them that you already have a solution for what you're sure is their biggest problem. That's kind of what we call telegraphing the answers that you want to hear, right, and then when you're selling the product, you sometimes may find, you know, I think I may have not gotten straight answers the first time. Does that make? 

0:06:19 - Mehmet
sense, yeah, 100%. So, in addition to this, like finding the early adopters, what other strategies you think founders should plan to secure success? 

0:06:36 - Sanjit
Well, you know, let's assume that you found product market fit, you did your homework, you did it properly, you did the right research and when you in that phase, if people really have a big problem, we should be asking them for a memo of understanding. Well, if you're really interested, then when I build this product, would you be interested in buying it? Well, I absolutely would be interested. Okay, could you give me a memo of understanding or letter of intent in LOI or MOU that says that you're very interested and you intend to buy this at this price point? Now, this will be the price point when we go to market. This is the price point I'm selling to you at, just so you understand that you'll get this price for the first X amount of time and then it'll go up to here. Now, if we can secure that, like you said, how do we make? How do we become successful? Well, if you secure some of these agreements that are sort of soft agreements, the beauty of that is that you are building your pipeline while you're doing your research. 

At number one, number two, you should, like you talk to investors. They say, well, how do I know anybody's gonna be interested? Well, I'm glad you asked, mr Investor, because look at all these memo of understandings. I have five solid memo of understandings or letters of intent from these enterprises or mid-sized companies or even small companies. But I have, I have established in writing, validated qualified interests from buyers. And so if you had two companies to invest in, one entrepreneur came to you saying I really think people are gonna love it and the other said I have memos of understanding that people are gonna buy these price points, who are you gonna write a check for, all of the things being equal right? So it's a very good signal to investors that you've done your homework and you already have sort of pre-tracked, if you will. 

0:08:30 - Mehmet
That's really, it's a good hack. I would say like getting an LOI or MOU beforehand, like first actually they have validated that they are building something that maybe it can get traction. So really it's an eye-opening answer. I would say, sanjay, now what did you see goes wrong usually at startups when it comes to sales in general. What about, for example, their pricing strategy, their distribution strategy? How important all this mix together. 

0:09:01 - Sanjit
Yeah, it's really, really important In fact. So Steve Blank is a, you know, sort of a immortal name, at least out here in the startup world, and he says that you need four personas to have a very successful startup the visionary, the hacker, the designer and the hustler. And so the hustler is the one we're talking about. That's me right. And the hustler is the one that a lot of startup teams don't necessarily give a second thought to, right? They say, oh, I have a vision and I have a hacker. You know, my co-founder and I are those two people. But designer thinking from the customer's point of view, what does it need to look like? What does the customer experience need to be? Because there's great products that have a terrible customer experience and they don't sell well, right. And then there's things with great customer experience that have a terrible vision and they don't sell well. So they really are. They go hand in hand all those things. But then of course, you need somebody with my sort of background at some point and a lot of times. Initially that's going to be the founder, or founders for a time, to get the first few customers, and then you need somebody who knows how to build out the business model or refine it, build distribution, like you're saying. These are very important components. So what do I see go wrong? Well, I mentioned a couple of them already Poor market, poor product market fit, and then no clear idea how to start getting the market or who your early market is. And then startups sometimes come and be and say okay, I have a few customers, now I need a salesperson so I can scale. 

And my first question then is do you need a salesperson? Let's take a look at that. Let's take a look at your business. Is your ACV less than 3,000 per year? If it is, you probably can't afford salespeople. That's an important consideration. Question two is can we make a lot of sales a lot faster? Not necessarily through a sales strategy, but possibly through a business development strategy, right? In other words, what does business development mean? For those who don't know what it means, like, what is the difference between sales and business development? Aren't they the same thing? They're not the same thing. Business development is a strategy by which you find partnerships or channels to do the selling for you instead of you having to hire your own sales force. 

Now, this should sound like a pretty great strategy to consider, at least for people that understand that a startup has very finite resources. To hire a big sales force of 300 people is not a possibility for early stage startups, or many or most, even at later rounds. That's a lot of muscle and money that you need. The question is okay, let's say I'm selling to large enterprises in a certain industry technology companies. Let's say I ask myself, what are their kinds of? Companies already have relationships with these large enterprises In a space that's sort of close to mine, where maybe my product is complementary with this big company's product, so I'm the perfect adjunct to put in the sales bag of their 3000 sales reps. Now they have something new to sell that's got cutting edge technology in it, because startups tend to have newer technology. So they have that advantage and we have the advantage of getting all this muscle and distribution. 

Obviously it sounds it sounds too good to be true and so. But obviously there's pros and cons. They need to find the right partners. That makes sense for you, strike a deal with them that is not terribly one-sided. There's some, there's some good and there was enough benefit for both parties. And then you know you, you've thought through the pros and cons and it makes sense for you and if you could find such a deal, you're much better off with something like that than trying to do it all yourself as a startup. For sure, that's something I think a lot of startups overlook, because I don't think a lot of them even know that that's a possibility, or they may not think you know who you think of the right companies or partners or whatever, but it's a very, very good strategy if you can make it work. 

The second big thing another big thing I see that's a problem is you know they hire a salesperson and they haven't made new sales yet, or they've made maybe only a couple of sales, so they don't have a repeatable pattern that they can just hand to a new salesperson. 

Now, one thing you got to make keep in mind is as a founder, you have a lot more ability to figure things out and a lot more incentive to figure things out and probably a lot more experience in life to figure things out than a brand new salesperson, and so you can't expect a salesperson to actually figure out your sales strategy on their own. You, as a founder, have to Make sales, start figuring out what makes these sales happen, how to repeat it, what is the pattern People like me can be helpful if founders are struggling. But once you figured out, then you hire salesperson. Then you're more likely to get your money's worth. I've had a lot of startups come to me and say you know, I paid the sales rep for six months, I burned a lot of cash and I have no sales to show for. And it's too common a story. 

0:14:29 - Mehmet
That's why I yeah, and just I want to add something, sanjay, for people who you know, thinking about hiring sales. I work in sales as well and the thing is, you know, the onboarding is not just the salary of the sales rep, like because you have to do trainings, you have to, you know, let him know about your product and so on. And one other thing which is a key to take away from what you mentioned, sanjay, I think Guys like you know companies, I work with startups and you know, until they reach, for example, three thousand Employee, it took them like ten years, like it's like. I know maybe you have now the ambition, especially if you are like thinking you have this cutting-edge technology but do it slowly and steadily. It's much better and more healthy and you can pivot. 

Also, maybe because you have to change, I would say, the strategy, or maybe you have changed. Maybe you were messaging, and changing the messaging with 50 reps is much easier than changing this for one thousand, right? So 100% valid points you mentioned now. Now, while you know I was researching, you know, I know that also you use kind of specialized in this, sanjay. So what are some unconventional revenue molded that start up should explore, especially in the tech sector because people think, okay, we can't, we're gonna have only one revenue model, so, but can you a little bit explain about this? 

0:15:58 - Sanjit
Yeah, sure. Well, there there are, you know, I think, ten or so major revenue models. You know, I Would say I do. I wouldn't say that people should focus on very unconventional revenue models per se. I think it's. 

It's here's, here's how I like to think about it is, when you're doing product market fit, you know you're thinking about a lot of things, not just do they have a pain point? Does this, does this type of solution seem to actually solve the pain point in the way they want it solved? How do they want to consume it? And, to your point, you know, what is it priced at? How do they want to pay? And some of that, a minute is a you know, what sort of alternatives do they have? What are they use? How are they used to paying for this? Right? 

And then you might think to yourself, like, like, for example, if you have a business development strategy, like we just discussed, if your partner is gonna be selling into these, well then you know, you already have a revenue share, properly, right, and so some of it is dictated by the customers preferences and environment, and some of it's dictated by the distribution strategy, because, you know, you know, sometimes your partner's gonna, you know, maybe put some pressure on you about how they want to do pricing. So you know there's there's some give and take based on other people's needs. But the bottom line is, if you think that you have a model that will make money and you have alternatives in front of you, you and you want to pick that. You know you want to like add revenue. For example, is is a lot slower to make, you know it's. It's a lot slower to make a lot of money than something like, let's say, annual recurring revenue like sass, right. So so that will also. 

Now here's another stakeholder that may dictate this a little bit is if you're gonna go get VC money and you have an ad revenue. You know, ad revenue Versus a sass recurring revenue. These are opposite ends of the spectrum, right? And so one's gonna much be much more likely to get you funding than the other, right? So these are all considerations you have to take into account. I mean for my money, from a salesperson's perspective, it's you know how can we close a lot of business and at the highest possible margin, and then, but then of course, you have these other considerations that I mentioned. 

0:18:21 - Mehmet
That's very clear. I would say now how they can. I would say, prioritize the most promising revenue stream. So let's say they found out that maybe they have two or three, so which one they should focus, and really you know, the laser focused on it. 

0:18:36 - Sanjit
Yeah, well, I mean, we would all be so lucky if we had two or three different revenue streams right out of the gate. You know, as a startup. If you do, you know, first of all, congratulations. But I think it comes down to you know which. You know I'm like I'd be looking first at which do I think I can scale faster? Which, like, which is more profitable? Which can I scale faster? Which has more demand, which has more pain? You know that we're solving which. Which is? You know, which is more likely to get venture capital funding. 

If I'm trying to get venture capital funding, if I'm bootstrapping, you know which one can I, which one's gonna eat up cash at a slower pace? You know what I mean. Like, for example, if I have a revenue stream where I feel like I can actually ask for a year upfront cash Versus another one where it's like I only get paid monthly or worse, I get paid after the fact. You know, if you're bootstrapping, then you have to take that new account. So I mean, on the one hand, it's hey, which is better, which is more attractive for these reasons, and then on the other side, it's which? What are my constraints? 

0:19:46 - Mehmet
So here we focus mainly on the what it's called customer acquisition cost, so, and we see which one will be the less right, and then we will focus on it because it brings more revenue at a probably not only less cost, also less time usually. So it's a very, you know, valid point as well. Now, you know, as you said, congratulations if they reach to this stage. But I know, like everyone, you know people, like some people, they like to plan and or maybe they already really they reach the stage. Congratulations again. And now they are planning for scale. So what are some strategies to scale a company We'll talk here about tech companies, of course from ground up, you know, and then so we can say they are not a startup anymore, they are now a scale up. 

0:20:45 - Sanjit
Yeah, so what are strategies to scale up once you get gotten to this point? 

Yeah, so once you have a once you're in a position where you have you know what you're doing works, you know you can do one and then another, and then another then, then then you really do have something pretty special. You have the repeatable, scalable sales model, or at least you have some early signs of it. So I think what's important I mean at that point is to think to yourself what is the like, what can get us like if we're hiring, if all, if our revenue is being brought in primarily by sales people, the question is, what's feeding those sales people? It's leads that have been brought in by marketing folks. Okay, so now I have two. I have a two sort of a lever system where I need to grow both and they don't grow in the same way. So I need to sort sort of plan out how many marketing people do I need to add to make sure that I have enough leads that will convert into this many dollars. 

So once you understand, you know how many leads you need, you have to go backwards to compute how much marketing dollars you have to spend to get this many leads. And it doesn't always, it's not always a linear type of you know function between the variables. Right, sometimes it's some. Some will be a step function where you need to spend a lot more because marketing starts to become less efficient. You need to diversify the ways you're marketing and so on. Sales is a little bit more linear, but then again you'll hit a step function where sales becomes a little less efficient. But it's really just doing the math about you know how. What is the relationship between these things, between dollars spent on marketing, dollars spent on sales, and then how many dollars does that create? And so you can figure that out once you start to have some sales. 

And I want to touch on an earlier point you made. It was a really good one. I never explicitly said cac, but it's. I'm really glad you brought up cac so you know when you're thinking about alternatives you have, or different revenue streams, or growing or scaling. You really want to think about the idea of lifetime value of a customer ltv overcac customer acquisition costs. That ratio becomes very important and investors will scrutinize that at least they did with us. They'll scrutinize that number and you want to make sure that number is over three and you want to make sure it's as high as possible, and so you know you may decide that certain methods of growth may have an. They have too high a cac, or you might decide that certain revenue streams have too low in ltv, and so they. 

0:23:27 - Mehmet
Those things might dictate your choices as well yeah, that's, that's true, and I think, one, you know. 

I would say one remark from my side as well sometimes you might spend more to acquire one customer, that, let's say, their starting point of ltv might look low, but on the long run, you know, it will be the best. 

I like to call it investment because, especially if you are still in a startup phase, your number one, of course you need to get dollars, but also you need to get as much as new customers as possible, and this is a method like personally I used it as well. Well, yeah, I know, maybe the deal size is not that big and I spent a lot, you know, with marketing, with other like activities, to get this customer to our side, but it was an investment because this customer, for example, will accept to be a public reference or use case for me, or maybe, or maybe, and on the long run, actually they're gonna grow and you know it's not like a one-time transaction, and I think also maybe you will agree with me, sanjit, I mean, you know, because everything became subscription and SaaS, so you have this recurring revenue anyway, right, right, yeah, yeah no, it's very good points, and so you actually brought up a couple more thoughts that I think should what. 

0:24:55 - Sanjit
Like you're saying I shouldn't worry too much about my tack in the beginning, and I agree with that, and also I shouldn't worry about everything I do being scalable in the beginning. So, and also, you know, there's some customers you may absolutely want to sell the loss in the first year because they may grow or, like you said they're, they become. You know, early sales are hard to get and so things become easier and then for a while things do become cheaper as you get more and more efficient and then over time they may get more expensive again. But but yeah, you're you're, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think sometimes people do worry too much about these things in the beginning, and they really shouldn't, because some of the you know those things usually work themselves out. That early revenue is really hard to get and sometimes you pay for it and you're glad you did yeah, and we see it. 

0:25:46 - Mehmet
Actually, yesterday, you know, I was discussing with another guest and it's very normal also, maybe for the first, let's say, one or two years, that maybe, if you are not with strapping, of course, maybe you would be a little bit in the negative, but you know that you have a great product market fit that this will pay off over the years. So, yeah, now, sanjit, something I'm, you know, I started to notice, and actually I'm doing it myself, and it's not because a trend, but because I think it makes sense. So you, you, you do yourself fractional, kind of a CRO, right. So first I want you to explain, like you know what, how do you help startups in early stages in your current role you do in your company, and why we are starting to see this more and more. I would say spread, and not not only for sales, by the way, so I can say you are a fraction of CRO. I'm at other people who are fraction and CMOs, fraction and CTOs, right. So is this a trend? Is this something you know like gonna be the mainstream for AY? 

0:26:58 - Sanjit
I think 100%. You know, I was introduced to the concept when I was running Lead Crunch, which was my first tech startup, which is now called Rev, and I was as soon as I heard about the idea. I was already a huge fan. Just just the concept of it I love. I said you were telling me I can hire a CFO, even though we don't need a full-time CFO, but I can hire that caliber of person for, you know, five hours a month or five hours a week or whatever. And and then I can get that caliber of person to help me think in a more strategic way and also do help me with the finances. I was just sold right from the get go. 

So the first, the first position I ran to was fractional CFO. Then I hired at least two, I think, or three, fractional CMOs at different times. Big fan, 100% of every fractional CMO we hired. And then we had to hire a full-time CMO, and I love CMOs. And we were going to hire a full-time Silicon Valley CMO and I almost choked on my lunch when I saw how much they cost. And I love these guys, their backgrounds are unbelievable but I just can't afford them, and so that's why I was such a huge fan and then, when I left my last startup, people just started calling me to do fractional sales work. Well, they just called me for help and I knew about the fractional idea, so I just slapped the word fractional in front of what I was doing. 

Now I'm part of a fractional United group and we're a slack group of I don't know how many hundreds of fractional professionals that do everything you could possibly imagine Stuff I've even heard of but they do it fractional. What's great is that you have highly senior people that can be much more efficient and get a lot more done, because they're doing the right things with the time that you're paying them for and you don't have to pay them full time, you don't have to pay benefits, and so there's a lot of advantages and I think, because the economy being where it is, a lot more people are going to do fractional work and the economy being where it is, companies have a lot more demand for experience but don't want to necessarily, can't necessarily, in this economy, afford full time salary. So I think it's a. It's a really big win, win that we're going to see a lot more of. 

0:29:22 - Mehmet
So like, do you do, like for them, let's say, complete sales strategies. Do you manage their teams? I mean, if they hire a salesman. 

0:29:30 - Sanjit
Yeah, sorry I didn't. I didn't say enough about that so. So what I do is the way I put it to them is I help you grow your revenue. And if that entails managing a sales team I've done it a bunch of times I can totally do that If it involves selling and then eventually hiring a team. I can do that If it involves one of my customers is actually much larger than you would think for hiring someone like me and they have a head of sales, but they've just got a lot of challenges they need worked out, and so I go in there and help do whatever is needed to grow revenue, and so that's that's generally my charter. Sometimes I take over bits and pieces of marketing or all of marketing, but whatever takes to grow revenue is what I do. 

0:30:19 - Mehmet
Yeah, what you mentioned is also applicable, by the way, here in Dubai, you know, and this is part of I'm trying to do the same thing because, for example, especially for startups from outside who are planning to come to the Middle East region, and hiring, and hiring here is not cheap at all and they're all very expensive there. Yeah, yeah, it's very expensive. And not only this. So there are, like I would call it, hidden costs. So, for example, you need to make residencies, you need to make compulsory health insurance, you need to take care of the dependence as well. So it's not like only this and only I tell the customer. 

You know, my customers also need to think about again I'm repeating the second time, but it's underrated training, because a sales rep to be fully able, capable to go and go talk to a customer, it takes, in my opinion, minimum he would take. He would take, okay, I would be very aggressive, I would say one quarter. But if you ask me, he needs two quarters until he is really, you know, confident, he can go, he can, you know, showcase the product Now, as we are close to the end. Sanjay, now you have a lot of experience, you have you help a lot of startups. You had your own startup as well, and you did an exit also right. So what advice you would give to entrepreneurs looking for successful exits? 

0:31:51 - Sanjit
Okay, well, first thing I want to make clear I didn't actually exit by selling our company to another entity. I got bought out and so that's. But I have sold smaller businesses before and what I'll say? I actually heard a. 

I was co mentoring with another really successful entrepreneur at Founders Institute, I believe it was, and he has done this a number of times and I think it's a really great strategy and it may not be possible for everyone, but what he'll do is he'll say you know, when you're, when you're building a startup, you generally know your, your space, and there are big companies in the space who are, you know, if you're going to get acquired, these would be the most likely candidates to acquire you right. So what he would do is he would simply call up the business development leads at these companies and say what kind of companies are you looking to acquire in the next few years? And they generally have. You know, they have a strategy, and so they'll. They'll tell them what kind of companies are looking to acquire and he'll he'll like, he'll pick a company and he'll say, okay, they're looking to acquire these. 

He knows how roughly, how big he needs to be, because that, you know, they only buy companies when they reach a certain size, and he also knows what kind of culture the company has, and so you know he'll. He'll build the company that they want to buy. That's a very customer centric way to do things, and so does that make sense just to call the end customer and say what do you want to buy in a few years? I mean again, I don't know if this is necessarily realistic in all industries, but I thought it was a very, a very clear, simple, brilliant strategy. And he's actually built and sold a few companies doing this, so I think that makes a lot of sense to think that way. 

0:33:36 - Mehmet
Yeah, I agree with you, Sanjit. Now where people can find more about you. 

0:33:43 - Sanjit
They can go to my website boltio that's BOL B is in boy O-L-T-T dot I-O and on that website they can book a chat with me to talk about the issues, the sales issues, they have. If it's a very, very early stage company, usually I just give them a little free mentoring and send them on their way and, you know, if it makes sense for me to be involved, that's great. And I also have a sales for startups course that you can access my website as well, and I built this course specifically for technical B2B founders who, you know, who need to learn a little bit about all these things, like we talked about at the beginning Great. 

0:34:24 - Mehmet
I have a final famous question Is there anything you wished? I asked you and how you would answer it? 

0:34:34 - Sanjit
I don't think so. I think you asked really good questions. I think it's a really important topic that I just I actually wish more people would talk about this stuff, whether or not they have me on their show. I wish they would talk about it because the thing that really the thing that really pains me is just because I know how much of your time and your life and your blood and tears you put into your startup. I just wish people I hate to see that all the waste of imagination and capital and people's lives that go down the drain, that don't make it, that don't have success just because there's a few key things they didn't know, and I think that's a tragedy. And so I've also put a bunch of free videos on YouTube and TikTok because I really want people to know this and not fail for easily avoidable reasons. You know what I mean. 

0:35:29 - Mehmet
Right, and this is why exactly you are here today, sanjay, because also myself, of course there are some situations we cannot avoid, like maybe if we can help in some way, especially young entrepreneurs like and I see a lot of them that they have a lot of energy but they don't know about this stuff. So we want to try to help them as much as possible to succeed in their startups. And this is why people ask me why you are covering sales marketing and it should be a technical show. I said it's not a technical show, it's called the CTO, but CTO it's a war that has a lot of things inside it. So it has the technical side, of course, it has the leadership, it has the founder spirit and, of course, in my opinion, everyone should know about sales, marketing, business development, product market. These are things that should everyone who's thinking to be in a company or even start their own companies. They should know about it. So thank you very much, sanjay. You put a lot of thoughts on the table. I would say A lot of insights you left us with. 

Thank you very much for your time today and, as usual, this is how I end my episodes. This is for the audience. Of course, you will see the link that Sanjay mentioned. It will be in the episode description. If you have any feedback, any question, please don't hesitate to reach out. You can find all the handles, as you can see now in the new frame. You can reach out to me by email also as well, or LinkedIn, where I'm most active. If you are interested to be a guest on the show, don't be shy, reach out to me directly. If you have something inspiring, if you want to showcase something a technology, maybe it's a sales methodology, marketing methodology, whatever it is this is the show where you can showcase your ideas. So don't be shy, reach out to me and we will meet again very soon. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. 

Transcribed by https://hello.podium.page/?via=mehmet