#205 Mastering the Art of Powerful Business Communication with Patrick Donadio

0:00:02 - Mehmet
Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased to have with me Patrick. Patrick, thank you very much for joining me today on the show. The way, as I was telling you, I like my guests to introduce themselves because no one can introduce himself better than himself. So it's all to you Well. 

0:00:20 - Patrick
Thank you, good to see you, mehmet. My name is Patrick Donadio. I'm a business communications strategist and I've been out there helping leaders and their teams communicate more effectively for over two decades, so I really enjoy leading and I love helping leaders, and I've been on national boards and I've worked with CEOs and CFOs. I work with frontline leaders, so I'm so excited today to be on your show to help your listeners learn about how to be more effective communicators. You know we spend about 80% of our waking day in some form of communications, so it's a skill that you can't escape. So I'm excited to be here today and I'm just waiting for you to open up our dialogue and let's give your listeners some great value. 

0:01:03 - Mehmet
Thank you very much, patrick, again, for being on the show. Let's start from the logo, which is looking on, I think, the right side of the screen, and it's from your book Impact. So you know, preparing for the show and I was telling you, communication is something that personally I'm interested in because I think, as you said, like we spend a lot of time communicating with others, maybe not verbally, but maybe over an email, you know, in different forms and shapes. So if you can explain to us, you know, the six-step impact to improve communication and how to achieve greater results Be happy to. 

0:01:46 - Patrick
You know, I came up with the process over a period of time. Initially I was teaching communication skills and then I had a chance to go to Japan as a goodwill ambassador and while I was in Japan I was visiting the Nissan Automotive Factory and I saw up on the wall this big sign that said Kaizen, and the Japanese word Kaizen means continuous learning, and I was talking with some of the people at this Automotive Factory and they were talking about the whole importance of having systems to help things be more consistent. So when I came back to the States, I thought you know, instead of just teaching communication skills, what if I came up with a process that could help people be more effective? And over time, I came up with this acronym called impact, and I know a lot of people think acronyms are kind of you know, they make up a word to fit, but this really is something I spent a lot of time on. 

So let me share with you the six steps in the impact process. They don't have to be done in order, but I put them in the order that I think is most helpful, but you can do them in any order, and the nice thing about having an acronym is that you can't forget the process because you have to remember the word impact. So the I is the first step of the process and that's called the intention. And every communication starts with a thought right, Think before you speak. Yeah. 

I don't know about you, but I've met some folks that start talking before they start thinking and then they get themselves in trouble or they spend way too much time having a conversation or mistakes are made. So step number one is the intention, and again, we can go deeper in any step if you like. I want to just introduce it right now. 

Once you know the intention, then the M step is the message and the method. So, for example, our intention today is to share this process with your listeners, to help them be more effective communicators, be better leaders and business owners. Right, that's my intention. So now, what would I want to talk about to achieve that intention and what's the best method? 

So we're going to talk about the method, because some methods are better than others, right? Sometimes an email is a good thing, sometimes a phone call, sometimes a virtual communication, like today. So A think about the method and then also what's the message, right? What are the key components that I want to be able to share? That's going to help me achieve the intention? So you start to see that everything comes back to the intention. 

Right, You're going to start with the end in mind. The P is the person. So I have an idea of what I'm trying to achieve with the intention. I know what I want to say. I picked the right method. Now I got to think about the right person. And we're all different. My man, I don't know about you, but I'm a little extroverted and sometimes a little more analytical, some people a little more introverted, and you just can't assume that we're all the same. So if you're going to communicate to somebody, I think it's important to personalize the message. That's the P step. So the IMP on the process is what I call the planning phase. Imp. I am planning, right, you're thinking about planning the message. The whole process is being proactive. The ACT is also planning, but now we're thinking about planning the delivery. 

The A step is activate and a bit a lot of studies done recently, and maybe you've seen the Gallup studies on engagement. So how do you get the receiver engaged physically, mentally and emotionally and how do you stay engaged? So we talk a lot about listening skills as well, and that's a skill set that I find a lot of people have had a lot of training on. So the A step is active engagement, active listening. The C is clarify, and so we want to think about how do you make sure the message you sent is the exact same message that they receive, because so many times those miscommunications, those misunderstanding and there's something I like to talk about called selective perception, where the message doesn't come from the sender, but it comes from the receiver. 

And then the last step and then I'd love to talk more about any of these steps with you is the T step, and the T is how do you transform this communication into the intention we set? 

Because there are folks that have a lot of conversations but nothing gets done. So you want to make sure that you have a transformation, and I like to talk about two types of transformations. There is an external transformation that people mostly probably think about you know, having a deadline and a time frame and maybe an action plan or a written follow up. But then there's the internal transformation, which is what's going to have to change internally, inside you or inside the receiver, in order to get the results you want it to achieve. So that's the active process, the impact process, the six steps, and what I tell people is if you understand these six components, if you just spend a little bit of time before you actually jump on the phone or start typing an email or getting in front of a group or even being on a podcast, to take a moment and think about these steps, you're going to be a much more effective communicator. 

0:06:32 - Mehmet
That's great, patrick, and thank you for the explanation. Now, actually, I'm interested in each one of these and I like when you said, put the end in mind. Now why do you think, patrick, a lot of people they don't do this, and how they can enhance it. 

0:06:52 - Patrick
Well, you know what? We're all impatient, we're busy, we're in a hurry Right, and I think it's getting. It's even getting worse. You know there's so many things coming at us. You know, for example, my grandparents came from Italy and my parents didn't go to college and my dad never wore a watch. I don't know how he went through his life without a watch. You know, because I have everything I'm doing. He's always timed. 

So I think part of the challenge of this is that we want to hurry up and get things done. But I really think in this process, once you kind of understand it and digest it, it literally takes like 60 seconds to 90 seconds to think it through. So it doesn't take a lot of time. And I always try to remind people and this is an internal transformation moment is you have to think about? Sure, I can get it done quickly, but how many more times do I have to do it if I don't spend the time up front? So it's like making an investment. If you spend a few moments up front thinking about the communication, thinking about the six steps, you're going to find that, yeah, it's going to take a little bit more time, but in the long run it's going to take less time, so we got to think more long-term than short-term. So that's my answer to that question, and feel free to dig a little deeper, maybe even add some of your own thoughts about why people may not take the time to do this. 

0:08:01 - Mehmet
Yes, exactly Now. I think one of the key problems, two things come to the mind. First one is maybe you know because of maybe they are working, they start up and they want to finish everything fast. Maybe you know because, especially I know from myself, if you are working, for example, in a very fast-paced job like technology, and you need to be fast and everyone expects from you to be very fast responding. So these two things that comes to my mind, plus maybe the culture of the workspace also sometimes and it's not only related to work, like some people you know, unfortunately, you know in schools they train us that the faster is better always. So now I believe, maybe from your experience, patrick, maybe some prioritization, you know, should be also applied. So because maybe you have multiple messages that you need to send to different people, and so I'm not talking about emails only, like could be emails, as you said, from calls. So how important is to make some priorities so you don't rush and you know you do the wrong thing? 

0:09:18 - Patrick
Yeah, well, I think one thing that's really, really important is to be proactive. I've loved that term, being proactive and so here's what that means. Let's say you have a busy day, you have back-to-back phone calls or back-to-back meetings. You wanna build in a five-minute cushion, so you have a few moments between meetings to take a breath and say, okay, now here's my next meeting. What's my intention for this meeting? Right? What is the topic I wanna talk about? Who's in the meeting that I need to be thinking about? You know, how am I gonna make sure that I'm listening and staying present, cause I got a lot I wanna talk about, and how am I gonna make sure that I'm being clear and I'm gonna check for understanding and, of course, when we wrap up the meeting and do, I have a closing that's gonna help me move this forward and achieve some of our intentions. So you see what I just did. Literally, that was less than 30 seconds, so it doesn't take a lot of time, and that's why I love the process, because now it gives you something concrete to think through as opposed to okay, I'm done with that meeting. 

What am I gonna do in the next meeting? I don't know, I'll do something. I guess I just wanna take a. You know you don't like without any guidance. There's a book I read years ago if you don't know where you're going, you'll probably end up someplace else. So A, I tell our listeners plan a question between your meetings. If you have back-to-back meetings, even if you can only give five minutes. So don't say the meetings from 10 to 11, say it's from 10 to 1055. 

So you have that question Number two is that you could you know your business. Probably you could take some time and plan out your message for your business and a lot of those components will be things you'll use in every conversation, right? 

Like what are the benefits of my product or service. That's part of your message. You should know all that information. So I would suggest, in addition to having a cushion between meetings, I hope all our listeners. If you are a leader, if you run a business, you need to have, every week, some time for you. You need to put on your calendar an hour 45 minutes of planning time for you where you have some time to sit down and think about the week coming up or think about the week you just had, and one of the transformation steps that I talk about in the book is the WD. So in this planning time A, you're gonna think about what you've done and you're gonna ask yourself two questions what did I do well this past week and what will I do differently next week? Right? 

0:11:39 - Mehmet
And automatically. 

0:11:40 - Patrick
I'm gonna be getting better. And so A have some time between communications and B have some planning time on your calendar every week for you and make sure you don't push it, because it's easier to push it when something else comes up. You can move it. You know, if you don't do it Thursday, do it on Friday, but don't go the whole week without having any planning time. So those are a couple of quick thoughts I hope Maybe the listeners might like. 

0:12:02 - Mehmet
Yeah, that's great. And one more advice from my side that I started to do and it helped me a lot. Maybe not really you would tell me, patrick, but what I started to do is, if I'm getting a meeting request, I'm asking I need a detailed agenda and I need to know what we are talking and why we are doing this meeting. And you know maybe it's a technical advice and you know when now I put my calendar on autopilot so I don't need to tell people okay, let's have a call or whatever, a meeting at 11, go book it from there and I make it automatically to leave this gap you mentioned, but make sure like it's a 50 minutes and then I have between two meetings minimum 10 minutes. So I'm not in a hurry to you know, and acting as you were saying, because I was doing the same mistake before, like a couple of years back. 

You know like, yeah, let's do back to back meetings and people think that the more meetings you do, the more productive. You are Right. You figure out that at the end of the day that you talk to a lot of people and you don't remember anything from what you did that day. So, 100%. Now let's move to the next one because I'm interested also to understand about the message management you know like and the method like. This is very, very important because you know people. I think they rush, for example, oh let's send an email, oh, let's have a call, you know. So I want to hear that from you also. 

0:13:28 - Patrick
Patrick, yeah, so you're right. So the first step is the intention and basically I just want people to take 60 seconds and ask yourself why am I having this conversation Right? What's the important of this particular communication? And once you get that clear, concise intention, then you say now, what's the best way to communicate this? So, again, the message management is the M-step. You have the method and you have the message. So let's take the method first. 

So many people, they tend to use their favorite method. Right, and I always remind us it's not about you, it's about the receiver. So like, for example, I'd rather have a phone call. If I'd rather do a phone call than texting, or a phone call than email, so I'm going to make a phone call. Well, guess what? Sometimes that's not the right method. 

I'll give you a quick example. I have grown adult children and I learned a long time ago if I ever try to leave, try to call, I'm going to get voicemail and they're probably not going to call me back because that's not their preferred method. So I know, as much as I don't like it, I have to text. That's the way to start the conversation. So when you're thinking about the intention and you think about the message. What's the method? Is it better to start with the text, or start with a phone call, or start with an email, or is it better to start with another format? But here's the homework assignment for all of our listeners what's your preferred method? And then make sure that you don't go there Like, but Matt, what's your preferred method? If you had to pick a method, what do you like the best? 

0:14:51 - Mehmet
If someone wants to reach to me, I prefer email, for example, or a text. 

0:14:58 - Patrick
So if you're a team leader right now or you have a company, one thing I would encourage you to do is find out from your executive team or from your team leaders what's their preferred method and then communicate that way. So I know now, Matt, if I want to reach out to you, it's best to send an email first. Now, maybe I want to do a phone call because, for example, if we're going to talk about a very complex issue, email is not the best method. 

But, it's a good method to start. So I know I need to get you to a phone call, but I'm not going to call you. I'm going to send you an email. I'm going to say Matt, how are you doing? Have you got 10 minutes? I want to discuss Project X so we can make sure we move forward with ABC, and then I'm going to move you to the method that's most appropriate, but you'll want to start with the method that the receiver prefers. That way, you can get them to respond. Does that make sense? 

0:15:43 - Mehmet
100% yes. 

0:15:45 - Patrick
So know the preferred receiver of your teammates and know your own preference. So, for example, I'm not sure if this is true, but my guess is, your first thought is I'm going to send an email because that's what you're like. 

You know, it's a good broad-default method, but you might want to say, well, I like an email, but this is John and you know what he never responds to emails. I'd better send a text. So then you do what you don't like to get it started, and then you can move it over to the right approach. So that's a little bit about the method. There's a lot of methods. Think about the intention. What's the best method to achieve the intention and what's the best method for that person that's going to start the conversation. 

0:16:23 - Mehmet
Yeah that's amazing, like it's spot on and like sometimes I would be frank, like I would try to guess, I would try to give it a guess, like maybe this guy would like a text, maybe he would like a phone call. But yeah, it's trial and error, especially if I'm trying to treat someone who maybe we met one time or two times. 

So I'm not very good at it, and this is where I think doing the personalization of the message is important, right? So I know, when I was preparing, you talk about four personality styles, so what can you tell us about this? 

0:17:08 - Patrick
Yeah Well, let me just quickly jump back to the message part. We talked about the method real quickly. So once you know the method, then think about the message. And so the message is basically what are the key components that I want to cover in this conversation as it relates to the intention? So, when you want to create content, one of the things you want to do is make sure you just don't jump in. Have a little plan, take a few moments, think about the message. What's the opening, what's the closing? 

Every good communication as an opening and a closing as an opening in an email, there's an opening in a phone call, there's an opening in a presentation, right, and there's a closing. So the message structure opening, body, closing and what some of the key components are is an important part. I want to make sure we wrap that up. But let's jump over the persons, right. Personality styles we're all different, right? I don't know about you, but I know I have, well, my wife and my two children, and they're all different. You know my kids are not exactly the same. 

Once more of an extrovert, once more of an analytical, and I saw this very early on. Just a quick Example when my son was young. I remember one time I said, hey, get inside the car. He said, dad, it's a minivan. Okay, get inside the vehicle. You know what I mean. So right away you could see he's very analytical. You got to be precise. You can't just, like you know, make stuff up. 

So the p-step is to take a moment and think about a what's your own personality style, what's your own experience, what's your own education level, what's your own background, what's your own culture? And then what's the personality, style, educational level, background, culture of the receiver? And then you want to, you want to blend these two together, right? So if I'm talking with an introvert and I'm an extrovert, I know that I got to be careful not to dominate the conversation because I could do that very easily. So I got to go in. I've got to get the awareness right I'm an extrovert, ask more questions, be more patient, don't interrupt, you know. And vice versa, if you're an introvert and you know you're talking with an extrovert, you got to go into the conversation saying, okay, be a little more assertive, you know, come prepared with questions, anticipate what might be. You know some of the questions because you know what introverts like to think before they speak. Extroverts like to speak before they think, so there's a definite difference. So those are just a few ideas. But it's so important not to make the assumption we're all the same. I'm gonna call Mary, I'm gonna call John, I'll just do the same thing for both. That's not gonna work always. 

0:19:37 - Mehmet
Wow, that's yeah. Like I'm, you know, trying to to remember some cases where I had to to do this, but just out of curiosity, like is this something that stays the same, patrick, or it can change over time? 

0:19:56 - Patrick
I mean you know that's a great question from the research that I've seen when it comes to personality styles, you know most personalities are not really formed until you know, like a young adult level, like you know 17, 18, 19, you know. So if you have children, then you might see that changing and For the most part your style is gonna stay the same unless you have some kind of a significant emotional experience. So you know a death of a loved one, a divorce god forbid, you know, maybe a traumatic experience where you had, you know you got fired or something like that. So when there's something like that, you know, then you might see some kind of a shift, you know, in personalities. So yeah, I mean it can change over time, but it's not just gonna all of a sudden change overnight, but it could change and it's gonna be dependent on what I call these significant emotional experiences. Does that make sense? 100% yes. 

0:20:47 - Mehmet
Because I've seen some people yeah, like they changed and yeah, it was like after a major event. Yeah, went from extrovert introvert. 

0:20:56 - Patrick
Yeah, you know one other quick thing, sorry to interrupt here. I just just you actually have a what I call a natural style and an adapted style. So when we, when I work with my coaching clients, you know I do I use disc. There's a lot of different, you know, there's Myers-Briggs and there's Herman dominance, but I use the disc process. And when I do a disc report, if I did the disc report on you, momet, it would give me a 22-page report about you and there's gonna be, there's gonna be two graphs a Natural graph and an adapted graph. So there's, you act a certain way at home and you act a certain way at work. Sometimes people are both are the same in both places. Sometimes they're different. So I want to make sure when you ask the question, in general, over time you probably won't change that often, but you might be different at home, at work, depending on the job. So does that make sense? 

0:21:47 - Mehmet
100% and you know, I'm not sure, maybe some people they can do these two roles in very good way. I'm not good at it at all and but I can tell you this is was part of my, you know, success. I mean in in communication with people, because I was, I knew about it, because I was asked like are you always like this? You know, because people get some stereotypes sometimes. Okay, if he's working in tech and he's in this position, so he must be like this, and and when they start to talk to me, you know, and this is yeah, I've been asked multiple times Are you always like this style of communication? I say yeah, like you know it's been the case for, for this is how I know myself. 

Now I mentioned something, patrick, you know, when you were explaining about listening. Yes, and I think you know this is I want you to to elaborate more on on that especially. You know I see this in in multiple Domains, in entrepreneurs, you know. They get some ideas and they like to explain about what they are up to. You know, and speak, speak, speak, speak or talk, talk, talk, talk. And I see it, for example, on some people who work in saves and I see it on some people who you know. So they are excited. I cannot blame them, but why? Listening and active listening is very important. 

0:23:13 - Patrick
Yeah Well, you know you're right on target and you know my man. I've been doing workshops and seminars for over two decades and Many times I'll ask when I'm doing this particular workshop on communicating with impact, I'll ask the audience how many of you have had a formal listening skills Workshop? You know 60 90-minute workshop and guess where percentage of the audience raises their hand any idea? Very few, I would say less than 15%. So, first of all, the reason we're not good listeners is because we haven't had the skill set training. You know universities and high schools they don't really spend the time teaching this subject. You know there are classes there, but a lot of people don't take a listening skills class. So one challenge is we don't learn this process. The second challenge is that there is a definite gap between how fast people think and how fast people speak, and so I call this the genetic attention prohibitor or the gap, and so, on average, we can think three times faster than someone can speak. 

So, while you're talking to me. You know you're talking, you're going beep and my brain's going beep, beep, beep, right. So I'm always working faster. So I have to be aware that there is this natural challenge, so I have to slow down. I got a state present, right, and that's why it's called active listening. You know, listening and hearing are two different things. Anybody here you know you can hear. Let's be quiet for one second and you're going to hear a little feedback noise in the background. You hear the hum. I got my know my computer is humming a little bit, but listening is where you are intentionally paying attention. 

So for people that are listening right now, I want to just remind you of a. If you haven't had any listening skills training, I highly recommend, you know you go online, find some information to learn about listening, get some some great tips and also remind yourself. It's naturally a challenge now you on, you couple that moment with a personality style and then it's even more challenging, right, because extroverts have a hard time listening. They want to be in charge, they want to talk, and I've learned and I'm an extrovert, but I do a lot of coaching and I've learned, really the important skill of being a better listener, and it's not easy, right, but I was able to make the transition because I remind myself, right, what's my intention. 

Well, my intention right now is to be a coach. Right, it's just go back to the impact process. My intention is to be a coach, which means I'd be asking more questions and talking less, because that's my role as a coach. Now, when I'm in front of an audience, obviously, you know, my intention is to deliver information, so I may still ask questions, but I'm probably going to talk a lot more. So active listening is an important component. I hope that gives you a couple insights and we can, you know, talk a little bit more about the topic if you'd like. 

0:26:06 - Mehmet
Yeah, sure, like, because I was reading I'm not sure if I saw it on LinkedIn or somewhere else and someone was saying that the problem is in schools. They teach us to, you know, being asked questions instead of you know, like. So it's about, like you know, we were trained also to not listen, so we are always asked to talk actually. So, and yeah, like I would love to, to to do this. I would love to dig a little bit more with you, patrick, on that why, again, you know, this is part of you know, not only the process, but it's a better way for success as well. 

0:26:48 - Patrick
Yes, yes. So I would say, first of all, if you're a leader, you know as you move this is my opinion moment you can share what you think. As you move up in an organization, the every time you go up to another level, people think you need to be talking to her. I actually think you need to be listening more as you go up the level. As a leader, your job is not necessarily have all the answers sometimes. So, asking good questions, paying attention, listening at a CFO that I was coaching who moved actually from CFO to CEO, and the first thing that she did is she went on a listening tour. When she got into the new role, she said for the next 90 days, I'm just going to go on a listening tour, I want to go around, I want to hear what people are thinking, I want to know what your concerns are. So she had these town hall meetings where she just made a few statements and then just opened up for questions. She was listening, listening, listening Because she understood something that I learned from my wife, who's a physician diagnose before you prescribe, diagnose before you prescribe. 

Well, you can't diagnose correctly if you're not listening and asking good questions. So, in terms of being an active listener, you also have to be a good person with questions, so I'm going to give our listeners a homework assignment. I'd like you to start to create your list of your top 10 questions, right? Because you can't be a good listener unless you know how to ask good questions. So start to think about what are some of your best questions you can use. You've got questions to get people to think. You have questions to come up with solutions. You have questions to engage people in a conversation. You have questions for clarification. You have questions for empowerment. So you don't have to have the answers many times if you just ask a good question. 

0:28:34 - Mehmet
Right. It's very much resonating with me now. By the way, one of the things that I had to train myself when I decided to do this podcast is how I can ask better questions and how I can listen carefully to my guests. So, based on that, I can come up with a more interesting question. And sometimes people ask me do you try to look like you are the smart guy listening and asking the tough question? And I say no, I like to listen first to get myself the information and then later on I can, in a couple of seconds, I can build the next how I want to take my conversation back, and I think this is very important because you need to listen so you can ask the question as well. 

And I can let this, patrick, even in the consulting field, because I worked as a technology consultant for a long time and I still do it. So, and I tell everyone guys, don't go to the customer and start to talk about what you have Right, so you sit down, let the customer talk and be active listeners, because this is how you can really. Later on, the turn will come to you, don't worry, you will have your turn at some stage, but listen first and then you can start to tell them about what they should do, which direction they should go and all this stuff. So, 100% on this. Now, I know maybe I'm jumping on the things, but when you are explaining that, the process, you ended it with the T, which is transform, which is transform. I get it, but it's like a big world also as well. Yes, so I want to understand how and, by the way, it's related to the intention which is you start with in the impact. So tell me more about this transformation in this process. 

0:30:38 - Patrick
Yeah, well, you know, even though it's the last step in the process, it's really not done at the end, it's actually done throughout the entire process, right? For example, once I get clear on my intention, that transforms my whole conversation, right? So every step actually is a transformation, if you think about it, because, for example, if I didn't know, our topic today was about my book on communicating with impact. I might be talking about all kind of things. Maybe I've seen people on shows and it's OK, I'm not saying this is not a good thing but maybe they talk about their whole life story. You know, that's nice, but that's not necessarily the intention. So the intention transforms everything. If you, for example, pick the right method, you can transform the response you're going to get. So transformation is the act of, you know, a movement of clarity, of kind of pushing towards results, and it happens throughout the process. And, of course, it happens at the end, because at the end everything goes back to the intention, right? So if my goal was to have a meeting with this client, let's talk about sales for just a moment, because it's a very important part of being a business owner and so many people get excited about. You know, I want to have a restaurant? Yeah well, that's great, but if nobody comes and buys the food, you're not going to be in business, right? 

So in sales, for example, the transformation happens by you asking good questions, and if you get the person to come up with the answer that you wanted them to have, they're more likely to embrace it. That's part of transformation. So even being a good listener is part of transformation, and I love what you said. You know, ask more questions and in the old days you know I've been around a long time. I don't know how long you've been around, but it used to be. You think about sales, it's like talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Sign here Right. 

To me, the process is listen, listen, listen, listen and then repeat back what you heard. And one of the most important things that I've learned is, when you're listening, use their language back to them. If the prospect says, you know we got some challenges, you don't say I heard you have some problems. No, you say I heard you have some challenges. Let me share what I heard. Right, so, using the language by using the right language as a transformation. So, anyways, the transformation step, even though it's at the end, happens throughout the process and we want to just jump to the T step. I'll talk about internal, external transformations, if you like. 

0:33:00 - Mehmet
Yeah, please, let's, let's go deeper, more deep and more into this. 

0:33:04 - Patrick
Yeah, so to me I just love this, this concept of transforming, because there's so much that happens and there's so little that gets done sometimes. 

And that's the thing that I you know, and sometimes it's good to be impatient in a way, because it does help you move forward, Right? So there are two types of transformations I talk about quite extensively in the book. The one is the what I call the external transformation. So here's the first example of an external transformation have a deadline for every what, identify a who and ask when. So if you're running a meeting, this is a good tool for you to jot this down for every what, identify a who and ask when. So, because if you don't put a deadline on something, it's going to take a lot longer. So transformation in one way is to have deadlines, right. 

That's the example of an external transformation. Another example of external transformation If you do have a meeting, you know what, send up a file, send out a follow up report, maybe a little action minutes or something to remind people what we talked about, and then there you again. You can use for every what, identify who and ask when Right. So deadlines, follow up, summaries, asking questions is part of a really good transformation. Again, because I mentioned before, if I get you to come up with a solution, you're more likely to embrace it. So those are all examples of the external transformations. 

I can spend a lot more time there, but I want to jump into the internal transformations, and these are the kind of things that I don't think we always think about and I'm curious if this is something that you think about quite often and this is what I call the internal mindset or the beliefs we have. So as a coach, I've learned a long time ago our beliefs drive our behaviors, our behaviors drive the results we get. So many times you focus on behaviors, which is good, right, the deadline, minutes, action. But sometimes, if we don't see action, then I encourage my clients dig a little deeper and find out what's the belief or the mindset of the person, because that maybe was getting in the way of the transformation, you know what. So let me stop for a minute and when I say mindsets or beliefs, tell me a little bit about how do you use that, or you think about that at all and your interactions or communications. 

0:35:24 - Mehmet
This is a good one. I think we need to understand the other person. I never thought about it this way, to be very frank with you, because I assume that they will have the same mindset as me, or I would be hoping that I am strong enough they will have, or I will convince them to have the same mindset as me. But I never thought about it this way. 

0:35:51 - Patrick
And I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I wanted to just kind of remind people that I don't think we spend some time here and you don't have to always spend a lot of time here, but whenever here are some symptoms and when you want to think about the belief of the mindset, when somebody becomes very judgmental or very defensive, there's an example where you might want to say OK, what's really going on there? There's something more to this than I'm noticing. Or when people don't necessarily get things done, they don't follow through, you know, and maybe it could be a skill, it could be an external, but it might be an internal mindset. You know, I do a lot of presentation skills coaching and I don't know about you, but a lot of people are not comfortable making presentations. And so some studies say, as a big sphere is the fear of speaking in public. 

Well, when I work with my clients, a lot of times, it's not that they can't get up and speak, it's that they don't want to or they're afraid to. Well, so I could give them all the external skills possible, but the internal process is what's getting in the way. So when it comes to, for example, being a more effective presenter, you want to think about what's going on inside your head, right? I mean, you might have somebody. I've had clients who said to me well, you know, I'm not really, I'm not a good storyteller. Well, first of all, if you say to yourself you're not a good storyteller, guess what? You're not going to be a good storyteller because you are the narrative. 

Yes, so you get the idea. There's a lot of self talk, there's a lot of beliefs that we grow up with, that we learn from our culture, from our parents, from our teachers, that we've been programmed, and I always tell a lot of my clients you wouldn't be working on a DOS computer right now because it's just out of date, but yet some of us have DOS beliefs and mindsets that we haven't upgraded in years. So the operating system inside our head is what I call the beliefs of the mindsets, and just like you keep updating your software, you need to update your mindset, and so if our listeners are really curious about this, you know I would encourage them to do a little more reading on mindsets and beliefs, because there's a very important process there that, for some of us, we just don't think through. 

0:37:56 - Mehmet
Wow, I love this inside, patrick. And I will just give some couple of examples, if you allow me. So One time I was working on a project and you know the client, you know One of the personnel at the customer or at the company was not responsive and you know he was always shying off or he was pushing back. And then, you know, we decided me and one of my colleagues like we decide to okay, let's try to understand why this guy is behaving this way, right? So he's like little bit, you know, defensive, as you were mentioning. He doesn't want to collaborate with us. And you know we said okay, let's try to break the ice and see what this guy is really thinking. And we told him hey, listen, let's go to a lunch outside the building and just have a chat. We promise we will not talk business and we will not talk about what we are doing. And he accepted. And then we figured out Just in half an hour and we were looking to each other, me and my colleague. 

I still remember and he said you know, after we finished lunch, are you thinking same what I'm thinking? I said, yes, the guy is not happy at work and this is why, you know, he's behaving this way. So, and in his, in his mind, if you know, he accepted to what we were trying to offer these guys. You know he was defensive because he might lose his job, or you know he was feeling insecure, and just, you know, we needed to to to convey the message to him that, hey, we're not here to replace you or we're not here to do something that will harm you, and then things work perfectly. But if we didn't do this step you know trying to communicate we would think, oh, this guy, he doesn't like us. He, you know, he, he want to be our enemy, which is not the case, of course. And the second thing, regarding what you mentioned, and I'm not sure if I was so overconfident at that time, when I was working in a university, you know. 

And then you know it's like a pure introvert job. Like you, I was a system administrator, like my job is just to fix computers and servers and so on. And when I got, you know the same guy actually who hired me and asked me like hey, can you do a presentation for 10 people? I said yes, of course. Can you do it for 100 people? I said yes, of course, and I never done before. I said can you do it for 500 people? I said come on, like, if you can do a Presentation with same way I'm talking to you now I can do it, even for 1000 people, I don't mind. So it's about, yeah, like, don't say I cannot do it, like, yes, something, hundred percent. I had to agree with you, patrick, and this is something I always push people because, unfortunately, sometimes we see a lot of negativity out there. Yes, I'm happy. 

I'm happy you brought this topic, because one part of what I'm trying to do although it's called CTO show, but we are humans and we need to, you know, keep pushing each other's for the best. And thank you for bringing this topic, patrick, really I I loved you know, too, that you touch base on this hundred percent, yeah. 

0:40:56 - Patrick
You don't say something. No, I was just going to add that I would just say for a lot of us and I'm included, you know we only spend a little bit more time Learning about ourselves and understanding what drives us. And you know, and one of the great things that I've gotten to do over the years Because I did go through coaches, training and I have a coach myself Is I was able to understand about why I was doing what I was doing. For example, you know, I grew up in a blue collar family. My grandparents, I said, came from Italy. My parents didn't have any college education and so we had this little thing that I learned you want something, you got to work hard for it. The harder you work, the greater the reward. And so I always worked hard. I worked really hard. I was a good student. I graduated summa cum laude. I went back to grad school, got an MBA. You know, I got promoted every two years. Work hard, work hard, work hard. 

And then, when I started my business, mummet, my first year I didn't make hardly any money. I didn't know that, how important sales was. And when, after the first year, when I didn't make a lot of money, what did I say to myself, I got to work harder. And so the next year I worked harder. Well, I didn't make any more money. And then I realized I was at a Workshop and the phrase that pays and you've heard it is from the 80s Don't work harder, work smarter. 

Right, that belief mind said changed my business. I went out embrace technology you know, I was an early adopter. I've got a computer, I bought some software that helped manage my activities, my CRMs, and in about two or three years I tripled my gross only because I was working smarter. You know, now I say to be honest, I don't, I mean, I'm not gonna brag, but I work less hours now and I make more money only because I have more experience and because I become really good at systems. 

So there's an example of a belief mindset that was instilled in me at a very early age and that was a good, good mindset. When you, when you're trying to raise a child, you want them to work hard. But at some point, you know, a belief we had when we're a teenager or a 20 year old does not work when you become a business owner and you're 40 or 50. So I hope our listeners today heard what you had to say and what we had to say, and I hope to take a little bit of time to go back and think through. What beliefs Do you possess to drive your behaviors? And maybe are there some beliefs, like the one I just shared, that I had to shift from not working harder about working smarter. That's gonna just transform your whole business. 

0:43:18 - Mehmet
Amazing. I love it. Before I ask you something else, like anything, we need still to cover Patrick from the from the process, because we discussed the I and the M and the T and I think we covered a as well. 

0:43:31 - Patrick
So yeah, what is left? 

0:43:32 - Mehmet
for us there. 

0:43:33 - Patrick
Well, we didn't talk about the, the C for clarify, so I'll just take a minute just remind people that you just can't make assumptions that the message you sent is gonna be received the way you intended. Right, and it goes back. Just, we got done talking about right. We all have different beliefs and mindsets, so when you share something, it's gonna be filtered by the receiver. It's called selective perception, right. And if I, if I asked you, for example, to think of a dog I don't know if you have any pets, but but I have cats Okay. So but if I said, think of a cat, what color cat are you thinking of? 

The color ginger one yeah, ginger, right, so I have a gray cat, and so, again, well, when you say the word cat, we both go back to our own experience, and you're thinking of a ginger cat, I'm thinking of a gray cat. That's selective perception. So our history, our experiences Taint our perception, and so that's why you got to check for understanding. You can't just make an assumption that when I say something, they're gonna get it. So, in in this process we spend some time talking about, and I hope our listeners will think about, this is make sure that when you're After you communicate it or before you wrap up, you find a way to check in and make sure we're both on the same page, don't? 

just assume that I've done a great job and I know that they know exactly what I want them to do. So selective perception is gonna get in the way and I want to make sure we spend a few minutes to remind people. You got to check for understanding, ask some good questions, maybe paraphrase what you heard sometimes, you know, ask for clarification, you know, just to make sure that we're on the same page, so that that we've now we've covered all the six steps and you know we can jump in wherever you want to go as you move forward on the call today. 

0:45:12 - Mehmet
Yeah, just one thing I want to add here regarding this Patrick and people you know, like Whoever you're talking to, whether a colleague or a customer that you visited, they appreciate that you take the time at the end whether it's a phone call or an email or whatever Maybe not an email, maybe phone call or in a meeting when, before you leave, you just summarize and you say, okay, this is what we have discussed today, you know, this is what we agreed on, this will be the next step. So it's kind of you know, like if you put the blueprint of what are the next actions and if we are all humans, we can make mistakes and if at some stage maybe you lost them, they would correct you because they would be listening and they say, hey, no, I didn't say this. 

I said that, right, okay, let me fix that right away. And then you repeat it again. This work all the time, you know perfectly to me. And, as you said, also, like regarding the follow-up. I mean, let's say, you did a visit again, so once you are back to your home or office or whatever, just send an email and again summarize that one time again because, right, you know, this is, this is very important. 

I'm giving this for you know, founders, for if for people working in consultancy, mainly you know customers that they love it and actually it's good for you also as well, because once you repeat it two, three times, like you will, you will get it. Now you mentioned a little bit about the public speaking and that we touch base. So, just out of curiosity, like how you, what you can tell us about keeping audience engaged and Making it as much interactive as possible. It's like, of course I know we can dig a lot there, but like maybe you can give us some techniques and they might be applied to their presentation, or maybe even if they are teaching something as well. 

0:47:06 - Patrick
Yeah, love that, and you know my Matt. I started out my business as a trainer, and I used to work at a university in higher education, so I taught some classes, and so I've always enjoyed being in front of groups, but I've learned over the last you know two decades or more, how to really engage in audience, because I've probably done, I bet, almost three thousand presentation, paid presentations over the last you know two decades. So the thing is this, though is become more and more important to engage people, because people just are more impatient. Right? You can't get away like you could if you're let's take in here You're taking a college class professor talks to you for 60 minutes and you don't do anything about listen. That's not gonna fly. So, number one, people who are listening. 

Today, if you're gonna make any kind of interaction with groups, I would encourage you again once you've worked out the whole meeting, the whole presentation. This is the thing I like to do at the end. I'll walk through and I'll say now Are there any sections or areas where I feel that I'm doing too much talking or I'm running the meeting and it's going on too long? How can I engage people in the audience? So I will go back and take a look at where I can plant some engagement techniques, and my suggestion is, you know, literally every three to five minutes you want to be doing something that's engaging the audience right physically, mentally or emotionally. So here's the first thing that I think makes for great engagement is have a really dynamic opening. Don't open up your presentation but good morning, I'm Patrick Donadio. Today I want to talk about presentation skills. You know you want to be engaging. You might say you know, my first paid speech was a disaster, and Then you pause and then you tell the story and then you you, if you have a workshop, you could open up with the story right, instead of good morning, I'm Patrick Donadio, let's talk now. So a story is a great engagement tool you can use in a presentation. Short stories, you can use it as an opening, you can use it in the middle of a presentation. 

Another thing that I love for openings is just asking a good question, right, and I'm like and that's why I work for you but I don't. I like to just kind of Shock them a little bit. I don't want to. You know, do all the things somebody else does. Good morning, hello. I would open up maybe with this. Have you ever found your heart pounding tonight before you had to make a big presentation? You know I have to let me tell you, so see, you pull them in with a question. So, anyways, engagement starts at the beginning of your presentation, then during your presentation and I love this is my fam. So glad you asked this question because we could come back and do a whole show just on presentations, because I just they workshop on this is so much fun. I love doing this. But going back to engagement, is that you want to engage people throughout, right? So using, for example, some visuals, right? 

Mm-hmm having a slide. If you're gonna use slides, you know, make sure that they're not 9000 paragraphs, right? You know some key phrases, maybe a picture, you know, maybe a reveal sometimes using, where you don't have everything pop up at the Same time. So visuals is another way to engage people. Another way to engage people is having the audience interact. So, again, doesn't work all the time, but I do a lot of workshops and so many times I'll put people in small groups. I'll say look, thinking of openings. I'd like you to turn to your neighbor. I'm gonna give you about a minute or two talk about what are kind of, what are the different types of openings you've seen People use when they make a presentation. Then the audience talks to the neighbor hey, hey, let's get back together. So what are some of the different types of opening? Then they tell me and then I said these are great, let me just. I'll talk about five, right? So now? 

0:50:37 - Mehmet
I've got to engage. 

0:50:38 - Patrick
Now they feel like they are thinking about openings, are totally focused on opening, so they just got done talking about it. Now they're more receptive to listening to me, so now I can come back and share some of my content, as opposed to. You know what I call show up and throw up. I don't know, that's probably not the right thing to say on your show, but you get people that show up and throw up. They just show up and they just throw up all the stuff and they don't. They don't think about the importance of keeping the audience engaged. 

0:51:03 - Mehmet
I think this is very important and from you know, I learned it the hard way as well. You need to be creative, you need to. You know I'm not sure if you would agree with me, patrick, or no, but sometimes you need to. You know from the faces of the audience you say, hmm, like these guys here. They look very serious, so better, I start with this. And sometimes you see the people that are very relaxed and then you know, you know that immediately you can start with a job. 

Right, so right, it worked with me. I can say 90 percent, 95 percent of the time, of course, at some stages, you know. You know you have serious people that whatever you do, you know they are, they are like this, but they are like two or three out of maybe 20 people in the room. So right. So so you need to do some assessment and, honestly speaking, I, when I used to do and I still I'm not doing this for quite some time but when I used to go to these you know conferences where there are a hundred of people and you are forced to use PowerPoint, which I'm not very big fan of. So the the way I used to do it is Just pick someone and ask him a random question, like hey, like why are you today? Or you know, like, so far, what was the best presentation you saw during the day? You know something like this. So at least people they understand and you know I like to move a lot also as well. So, yes, so at least I can see, you know, like People, like they would not be playing with their phones, you know. 

But I agree with you, patrick, the hook at the beginning is very important and the best thing I've seen. You know, you know people who talk, for example, on Ted and something like this, when they start with a story and they hook you, story like not any story, like hey, I'm, you know, I'm Mehmet and I'm the PCt ocean podcast host who cares right, so I need to tell them hey, did you know? Like I never did a live recording before, for example? Yeah, so 100% agree with you, patrick, on this. So I think we've covered quite good topic and I agree with you. Maybe we need for the public speaking, you know, and presentation Another episode. But before we close, patrick, two things very quickly when people can find more about you. 

0:53:22 - Patrick
Sure, I mean the easiest way to if you want to just connect with me on LinkedIn and you can see my name on the screen Patrick Donadio. Just go to LinkedIn, send me an invite and, if you can, you know, let me know you met on the show. That'd be great. Or you can go to my website, which is patrickdonadiocom and, by the way, mehmet, I have a resources page where people can go. There's some other articles. There's a nice article there on the Eight mistakes presenters make. So if you really like this topic, you can go there and get that free article as well. So either on LinkedIn or on the website, those are two good places you can always email me. It's everything simple. It's it's Patrick at patrickdonadiocom. So I try to make life easy. It would be in the episode description. 

0:54:06 - Mehmet
So just for the people not don't worry if you didn't, you know we're able to to to catch it. So it will be in the episode description. And I have a very Final question, which can't became a legacy now. Yeah, I think I'm gonna go to the next one Legacy now. Yeah, is there anything, patrick, that you wished I had asked you and how you would answer it? 

0:54:29 - Patrick
Yeah, Well, one thing I wish you would have asked me was what is the best thing our listeners can do right now to start becoming a better communicator? 

0:54:38 - Mehmet
Yeah, and I would say. 

0:54:39 - Patrick
I would say this spend some time every week Thinking about what you're doing and who you're doing it with and, if possible, even consider some of the things we shared today. Right, because the best thing we can all do for ourselves is invest in ourselves, which is what I think people are doing right now by listening to your podcast. So I hope my med. By being with your listeners today, they got a couple good ideas they can put in the practice. And I always close every presentation, whether it's a keynote or a workshop, with this favorite quote Nothing changes until you change. So I'm so glad you joined us today, but if you leave our podcast and do nothing different, you'll be the same person. So take one or two ideas today, put them in the practice. If they don't work the first time, fine tune it, try it again. Take action. 

0:55:28 - Mehmet
Well, thank you very much, patrick. I really, you know, feel very, you know, happy that you shared all this knowledge with with my audience today, and I'm sure that they will have a lot of takeaways. And you know, I'm sure that we can I make another episode in the future, again together, as I mentioned, and the way I end my podcast episodes is always I ask all the audience for their feedback. So, guys, you will have all the links that Patrick mentioned. They will be available in the description, but if you have any question or feedback also, please reach out to me. 

I like to listen to your feedbacks and, you know, tell me what topics you would love me also to discuss on the show, like I love to hear from you About it. And if you are interested to be guest also as well, don't be shy, reach out to me. We, if you have an inspiring story you have, you know, something Very, very inspiring similar to what Patrick have done with his book reach out to me. We can discuss it doesn't matter where you are in the world. You know Patrick is in the US, I am in Dubai and I have guests from all around the world, so don't worry about time zones. I can, I can manage it and thank you for tuning in and until we meet next time. Thank you very much, bye, bye. 

Transcribed by https://hello.podium.page/?via=mehmet