#273 Ed Frederici on AI, CTO role in Acquisitions, and the Future of SaaS

0:00:01 - Mehmet
Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased to have with me Ed. Thank you very much for joining me today. The way I love to do it, I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves because there's no one else that can do someone else better than themselves. So the floor is yours, ed. 

0:00:20 - Ed
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me on your show. I appreciate it Really. Quick intro Ed Frederici, I am the CTO of App Fire. I have been coding or in some form of technology for over 30 years now. I've had a great combination of startup experience with companies as small as four. I've had experience with huge companies like Salesforce, where I was the CTO of the Salesforce Market Cloud with 20,000 people. I love technology. I love developing software. I love Elegant Solutions. I think of a good piece of software in the same way people think of a good book or a good movie. They're entertaining, they're fun to see. I just get a lot of pleasure out of software that is well written and solves a meaningful problem for the people who use it. 

0:01:13 - Mehmet
Great, what a long history, I would say. I think you have seen it all. So the first thing I want to ask you because you've been doing this for quite some time You're in the SaaS domain, so let's talk first about SaaS and how things have changed or went from back in the days. I think now SaaS is quite some not new anymore. It's not like something new, but always we're seeing some also new trends. So how have you seen this transition during this period of time? 

0:01:48 - Ed
That's a great question. The very first company I worked for as a C-level contributor was before SaaS was a thing. It was founded in 1998. That's not true. It's founded in 1990. I'm a little bit farther there. We were called application service providers back then, but we were essentially a cloud-based solution that provided online assessment and testing for employment purposes to any class we wanted, so it was web-based architecture Back then. That was before Salesforce, really, and that was before SaaS was a common terminology. And everything has developed since then. 

The biggest change I've seen is the willingness of companies to adopt SaaS. Even when I was at Salesforce which wasn't that long ago, it was only 12 years ago there was a resistance to using software services that were outside of your own four walls and outside of your firewall. There was real debate whether or not people would be willing to put their data and their uptime and all those things in the hands of a nebulous cloud. That certainly has become common. The government has stuff in the cloud. Now the CIA has stuff in the cloud. 

The biggest companies in the world run in the cloud. That evolution of acceptance has been phenomenal Back in the day. The things we coded that provided for horizontal scalability off of virtualized infrastructure or asynchronous services are now for free in the cloud. You don't have to invent them, they come out of the box for you. So it's really enabled software developers to focus less on the mechanics and more on the problem space, and I think it's really done a great job of allowing people to focus on feature sets and differentiation and value over the underpinnings of what makes software work. 

0:03:52 - Mehmet
Yeah, People always think that it's something new. We remind them that such kind of it was not called the cloud, but offering a service of software as a service. Actually, people maybe they agree or they don't agree with me. I say, back in the days when we used to have the mainframe, so the mainframe used to be a cloud, if I can mention, because you used to have all the determinants and then we came back to the same thing. Now, Edward, I'm also curious to know about your current. With AppFire, like with your current company, you focus more on something which is really related to productivity. So if you can explain to me about what was the story behind AppFire and what you guys are trying to solve, and a little bit about the journey in AppFire. 

0:04:47 - Ed
Sure, so AppFire is going to be a unique company in many ways. I know that every company thinks it's unique in some ways, but fundamentally what we do is we make a feature set of what we call ecosystems. The ecosystem is Atlassians, jira or Atlassians, confluence, azure, devops, salesforce, mondaycom, whatever. Then we make that feature set better by filling in that interstitial space where key features are missing, but we also enable communication across those tool sets. What we really do is enable knowledge workers to work more effectively and more collaboratively. One of our key tenants is that the teams choose tools, so it doesn't matter if your marketing department wants to work in Monday and your engineering department wants to work in Atlassian and your finance department wants to work in Microsoft and Salesforce. We give you the ability to combine that data together, visualize it, act on it and visualize it. Almost more importantly, we fill in feature gaps inside those ecosystems so that the tools you use are better and they're better at communicating with each other. 

0:05:56 - Mehmet
That's great so, but this will bring the next question. So you have to deal with a lot of you know integrations in this case, right. So from I would say, you know feasibility perspective and One of the maybe you'll agree with me at one of the biggest challenges. Usually I hear from you know technology executives in in companies that you know they have acquired all these you know tools and then they figured that out even like also there's the shadow, it part also of it, because you know everyone brings their own tool. So how you know like you can you know get all these things together and then make the integrations. It's more easy, like if, if you know like can shed some light on on you know the I'd say the techniques, or like what are the technologies that you use to get this piece together. 

0:06:51 - Ed
Sure. So let's use some specific examples. So let's take your service manager and sales force. It's a pretty common use case. You have a support team that's using JSM to provide front-end support to your clients. You have a sales or a good a market team that's using sales force to interact with those clients. Those two sets of data combined together offer greater value to you as a company because you understand Everything there is to know about a client when you compare their usage of the tool set and the issues they're having or the questions they're asking with them as a client right, contract renewal dates, size of contract, what they bought, that kind of stuff. 

Having a bi-directional integration between JSM and sales force allows Everyone to work in the tool that they care about most, that they're not familiar with, most comfortable with, but have access to all of the data. So one of the use cases we would have is an update to sales force is then pushed Through the integration to JSM and the support ticket in vice versa. So that way a support person has great 360 degree awareness of a client and the person and from the go-to-market team is an archer. The client knows what's happening that client's life On a day-to-day basis. It gives you the opportunity to provide higher quality, more complete service to that client. 

In that case, salesforce has a very well-defined Structure for integration, and so does the Atlassian system, and so that's a custom integration between sales force and Jira. One of the things we look at because new tools come online all the time and, like you said, there's that shadow IT where people may be using non-standard tool set is how do we have Integrations that are highly robust, bi-directional, across many things, and it's really a case-by-case basis. So as we go into an ecosystem or look at something that's our applications would interact with, we look at how robust API is, how thorough of an inner integration we can have, and we'll either do a direct integration or Potentially use a third-party tool to do the integration. But we don't have one set of tools to do it. We have a come a best and breed best of case scenario where every integration is treated uniquely. 

0:09:11 - Mehmet
That's Exactly, you know, what I was, the answer that I was waiting for, and I asked you know on purpose, because you know I get this question a lot at honestly now, how this you know also can be utilized because, especially, as you know, after the pandemic, everyone shifted to the hybrid remote. You know Standard, I would say so how this also, you know, have helped, you know, the customer that you work with in adapting this, either fully robot or hybrid, you know works time to it. 

0:09:49 - Ed
Yes, so I fire. Itself is a is a hybrid work environment and it's global right. So we don't just have people who do or do not come to an office. We have teams in, I think, 15 countries you and so that highly distributed workforce is essential to how we do business and we think of it as a force multiplier for us, and so the challenges that companies face post pandemic are challenges that we've been dealing with since inception because of the way that we were structured and our tool set allows that collaboration to be of highest quality possible. 

Because of those integrations between tools, so that you are getting the information in something like real time right. The tool set you work in is being updated with the tool set the rest of your company or department's work in and is facilitating the communication that used to occur in the hallway, in the conference room, in those interstitial moments when you were all co located. So it really fills in the gap of those informal discussions that were occurring, and now we're doing it through tool set right. And so another common use case would be an integration to a tool like Slack, where something occurs in an application or in an ecosystem and that triggers an event that puts it into Slack, right? That message in Slack is a great analogy for passing someone in the hallway and being able to say hey, did you see this issue? Did you talk to this person? And so our tool set and its ability to integrate multiple tools together with notifications and data transfer, closes the kind of the space that's introduced by remote work and global work. 

0:11:34 - Mehmet
Yeah, so that's a great use case, I would say. Also add, you know, when I was preparing, you know I've seen like your multi phase and you have a lot of experience at, so I want to get as much as possible. Now, one of the things I noticed and you know I get this also you know, as I said, from your bio when I was preparing. So one of the things you know you've done during your career is you had to deal with a situation where there is a merger and acquisition kind of a transaction and as someone on the technology leadership side, you know you need to make sure that you have to align. You know the culture and you know how the team will fit together. 

So you know I never, you know, ask this on the show like although, like I had some CTOs who were like from the same journey. But if you can, you know a little bit, shift some light also about, let's say, let's call them best practices or maybe what are the essential, I would say, things you should do to make sure that you have a smooth transition, especially, you know, because in tech, you know, because one company would be using something, the other company would be completely using something else. So how? And of course, there's a cultural factor also as well. So how, how did you manage this and what are like some of the best practices you can share with us today and that's a wonderful question and it's a really robust question because there's so many things that play into that. 

0:13:07 - Ed
So just to provide some context, over the last two years App Fire has acquired about 25 companies. So we've done a lot of M&A. We've done small companies of a few people, larger companies of 100 people. I've also had the experience. You know, the company I worked for, exact Target, which was about 1000 people, was acquired by Salesforce, which was like 15,000 people. So I've acquired and I've been acquired and I've been on both sides of that and for me, the thing that it always boils down to is people and culture right, because if you get the people and culture match wrong, it's never going to work. If you get the people and culture match right, no matter what challenges you face post-acquisition, it will generally work because you are aligned on values. 

So one of the key things we do at App Fire is, yes, we do acquisition. That's a creative to EBITDA and revenue and grows our footprint appropriately in whatever ecosystem we care about. But that is almost secondary to our desire to acquire a company that has people in it who match our core values. Two of our top core values are be human and add to the awesome. And when we go into an acquisition scenario we really look at are these folks who we want to sit next to and work with every day? Are they people who put other people first? Are they people who will add to the awesome that is already at App Fire? And if that's true, then we look at the financials and we look at the market fit and those type of things. 

So generally, what really happens, especially if it's a smaller company being acquired by our larger company, is you have a group of really entrepreneurial people doing multiple things, wearing multiple hats, who are just, with all of their effort, forging either a new path, creating new software, building new things, and then they join a larger company and that larger company has different processes, different systems, more well-defined groups. 

So a great example is the CEO of a startup might be doing sales and marketing and a little bit of finance and all these different things, and then when you join a larger company that has departments that does that, they take that from you, in a sense, and say, okay, well, finance will now do all of your finance, marketing is going to handle up your marketing, and the remit of this person, who is an intense entrepreneur, begins to shrink in a way that can make them feel like they've lost control. So a key variable to success is, as those founders enter your business, you must challenge them with opportunity to be as entrepreneurial as they were, to contribute as much as they were, even though the breadth of what they're doing may shrink as legal gets taken by someone else or the finance does. You have to give them the opportunity to have an outlet through what made them a successful entrepreneur and allow them to build a company you were interested in acquiring. 

0:16:03 - Mehmet
You know, good point, and this is just triggered something quickly in my head but don't you think, at like such entrepreneurs, they should, when the moment they are accepting to negotiate, let's say, a deal with the other counterpart, don't you think that they should know, especially if they've been acquired by someone much larger than them? 

0:16:24 - Ed
So that's another good question. There's a euphoria that occurs as acquisition is about to happen. So if you think about it as from the time you saw in the LOI, you go through due diligence, you're acquired, you begin to land your company. There's just a lot happening In everybody. It's kind of like your first date. Everybody puts on their best face, they are on their best behavior, everything is perfect and you're in this courting relationship where both sides want to be the one the other side chooses, and so mis-expectations can occur then and almost an unfounded optimism can occur then, where everything is going to be perfect and you see all these opportunities. And then reality sits in, as you're a business on the other side. So I think it's very important for the acquirer and the inquiry to be honest about what the expectations are, about what the future will look like, what roles people will take on, so that you don't have this trough of disillusionment post acquisition. 

Because if you think about it as the founder, you're going to work really hard during that due diligence phase Many late nights, weekends to be emotionally exhausting. You're going to join. There's going to be this high of the announcement, this excitement. Then you're going to do the very hard work of integrating your company into the new company and that is equally emotionally exhausting and if you have mis-set expectations through that journey it can be really devastating to you on a just a psychological basis and it can be a high demotivator. So it's really important for both sides to put their cards on the table, be honest about what they want, what expectations are realistic and then go into that. I think many entrepreneurs especially when you're below like $550 million in revenue, do not have a very realistic appreciation for what it's going to mean to be acquired. You've been your own boss for maybe 10 years, you've made every decision yourself and all of a sudden you have a boss and you have to realign yourself to what it means to show up to work every day. 

0:18:27 - Mehmet
And you know the thing I notice usually these founders, they don't stay much after the acquisition. So, you see, if they have this what we call the serial entrepreneur profile, so maybe they will stay for maximum. I've seen two years and then you see that they went and they started something else. And I read a lot of books and it seems like this is the trend. So all the guy you know said, okay, enough is enough, I'm gonna go retire, I'm not in tech, and they disappear for quite some time. Yeah, and because I think this has come, especially if they are first time founders at like, I see, like the first time founders, you know, of course, like it's their first undervaluer, you know, like they are taking it as their baby. So there is this, you know, relationship part. So, yeah, but I think the point you mentioned about the culture and you know the fitting between the teams, I think this is the key for making it, you know, a successful transaction at the end of the day. So great insight from you here Now, of course, now I bring a topic that everyone talks about and I'm aware of that the AI thing. 

Right, so we are in the age of AI. You know we entered that. So back to what you do currently with AFFIRE. So what are your thoughts on, you know, integrating AI in order to do like new innovations, and how this is now important to keep, you know, companies agile and not say only agile actually they can stay robust in front of all these rapid changes that's happening very, very fast. 

0:20:11 - Ed
Okay, that is a complicated question. I will do my best to answer someone's question. Obviously, with the invent of the recent large language models and this is a huge acceleration of AI the opportunity is phenomenal. Right, there's just a massive expanse of uncharted territory that you can take your application. I think of it in some ways. My favorite Thai restaurant here has about 200 items on the menu and every time I go in I'm overwhelmed by what could I possibly do, right? Which one am I going to eat today? 

And that's true with the opportunity, with AI right now, there's so many different places that you could put it inside your application. You really have to be exceptionally thoughtful about which ones you're going to pursue, because you can't pursue all of them right. And for us, we like to build software people actually use, right, and so there is some flashy stuff. If we're searching for, pursuing that press release to say that we have AI, or there's the stuff that adds true meaningful value, and we want to make sure it's true meaningful value, right. And as you go through that journey as a company and look at things, there's a lot to consider about compliance, about data integrity, about intellectual property concerns as you adopt these models that you need to be very conscientious of before you introduce it to your client base, because you're the curator of the curator of the client's data set, of their integrity, of their reputation as they use your product, and you've not done your upfront due diligence, you may put yourself at risk of harming them in some way, unintentionally. So you need to pick the right thing, to do that at maximum value. You need to investigate it to make sure it's the right tool to use and then, as you implement it, you do it For us. There are a couple of use cases that are just natural, right and exceptional for us to do. Ai today does a great job of telling you what the right next action is and in some ways, ai today is just an exceptional type of search engine. 

So if you think about a use case and support where I'm calling in because I'm having a problem configuring your tool, or in some of our tools set there's, you write code snippets to make them work. Maybe I don't know how to do that. If you go ask an LLM, how do I write this command in appfire CLI tool, it'll give you perfect syntax back. It'll solve that problem for you. It is a great use case that accelerates your understanding of how to use the product and does it in a way that is as good as, or better than what a human being would do. The same is true in the case of early deflection of support cases. When someone comes in to ask a question, if they can ask a really intelligent AI model how to do it, they may get a faster resolution and you'll pass fewer support cases down to individual people to take on. 

From a product perspective, we really care about billing AI. We have over 100 applications. If you think about how app fires built were in multiple ecosystems. We have multiple applications in every ecosystem. They do disparate things. They might be ITSM related or DevTool related or publishing related. We want to create a platform-centric AI tool set that all of our applications can pull on so that when we do find a use case, that's awesome, it can be adopted across the entire application set as quickly as possible and offer that value to all clients relatively simultaneously. 

0:23:46 - Mehmet
Great, I know the question was a little bit loaded. Now, from any company perspective, from any organization perspective, how important is to, at least, at their minimum, to understand how they can leverage AI? I'm talking to a lot of people and the problem is the things are moving so fast and CIOs, ctos and I'm talking about just normal enterprise companies and even mid-sized companies they are telling me we are not able to be up to speed with all the things that are happening and there is an overload of knowledge that's coming to us. So, again, because we've been in the technology leadership for a long time and I think you can also tell us maybe some advice for these CTOs or CIOs where they can start, how they should approach this fast-changing environment around us. 

0:24:46 - Ed
Yes, that's a real problem, right. 

The evolution of AI is so rapid a decision you make about which tool set to use and what problem to solve may be obsolete and wrong in three months, if not sooner. 

One of the pieces of advice I got really early in my career from an early mentor was that a portion of a CTO's role is to ensure that, as new technologies emerge, you pick the ones that are fundamental to the future success of your business. 

You can't miss a key opportunity where a paradigm shift is occurring. Ai is clearly one of those paradigm shifts. You have huge players in Google and Microsoft and others introducing tools of exceptional quality, right, and so the way we've approached it, and the way that I think many people should approach it, is we've defined the problem we want to solve, we researched the tools that exist in the moment, we pick one and we move forward with the realization that, due to the rapid evolution of that space, we will likely, after we write that, sooner rather than later, to take advantage of advancements in the AI space so that that tool continues to be as robust as the technology allows it to be. So, with so much change on the tool set side, you have to be willing to adopt that much change on the development side to stay current. 

0:26:10 - Mehmet
That's great advice. Again, ed, and I want to talk about from your point of view, other than this fast changing technology, what are the major challenges that CTOs and technology leaders are facing today? And other than this AI getting very fast, what are other trends, let's say, or challenges, you're seeing in this space? 

0:26:39 - Ed
Well, that's a really good question. I think there's a couple of categories of that. One is on the business side, business strategy side. We are in a macro global economic environment. That's a little bit challenging. 

So I see a lot of companies I mean, you've seen the massive layoffs that occurred at different companies across the last year and so the CTOs are being pressed to develop more, do more without increasing expense, and so there's this push and pull of, hey, we want to continue to be competitive, to grow our competitive set, but do it with the same amount of fewer people. That's a huge challenge for a technology executive to be able to meet both of those goals simultaneously. What's great is there's a lot of tools that's coming that allows you to do that. Portions of that are AI. Portions of that are better tools to understand software engineering, metrics and what your teams are doing and those type of things. And so I think there's that pressure there to be kind of a business executive as a CTO and really drive business outcome. 

And the other piece is the technology portion of that, and the biggest challenge is the technology side isn't necessarily an emerging technology. It is the change of the workforce. The workforce is more remote, the workforce is a different culture today, where people want your company to be offering social value, have a culture set that matches them, where there's a great balance between work life and personal life. And so, as you have this today this pressure of economic situation and then this desire from the workforce to really be socially conscious, to be able to have time off and do things those are in conflict with each other. 

Interestingly enough, just this week here at At Fire, there was a Slack post from the executive team as we move into the holiday season that we want people to take time off. We want people to have that balance. We strongly encourage people as they take their time off to remove Slack and email and calendar from their phone so that when they're gone from work they're maximizing that opportunity and enriching their lives, so that when they come back to work they're truly refreshed and replenished. People who have robust, fulfilled, exciting lives outside of work tend to bring that spirit to work and make you a better company. So, as you see, trends occur. I don't know that emergent technologies are the biggest challenges for a technology executive. It's really changing workplace culture and changing economic conditions that you have to be on top of to ensure that you have an engaged workforce and you're optimizing for what's happening in the world today. 

0:29:25 - Mehmet
This is a very holistic view, Ed, and I think, again, it's very insightful, because the problem is, if you don't look at it from that perspective and I've seen people do it wrong and they get stuck on the technology part without looking at the bigger picture, as we can see and honestly I applaud this culture that you have at a fire, like by telling people to remove Slack email and even sometimes even I discuss on this show something that relates to technology I bring people who talks about mental health and this kind of stuff and they say, yeah, you need to do this from time to time as a technologist in general and even as a leader yourself. Now, Ed, one thing, and I believe you know majority of the audience, some of them. They come to me and say, hey, how we can become a CTO in the first place and how we can become a better CTO, and I'm sure that you can tell us a few things about that. 

0:30:26 - Ed
Sure. So I think one of the things I will say to every manager that works for me is that to be an exceptional engineering manager, you have to understand the business. You have to understand both from a product perspective and my ask of every engineering manager is that you're as good at understanding and demoing the product as your product counterpart is but you also have to understand the financials right. Every company is fundamentally in the business of making money. That's why companies exist and they have different remits, they have different social standings, all those type of things. 

But you have to understand how the decisions you make as a technology manager impact your clients and impact your business on a product and finance level, right. So you should understand basic SaaS financial metrics. You should understand your client use cases. If you can't articulate five to 10 core use cases of how your clients use your tool set, you really don't have the right skill set to be making technical decisions about how it's architected. So for someone to grow from just like an M1 manager up to CTO, their understanding of the product set, the business metrics, needs to go from nation to well understood so that they can make decisions that foster growth of the company, satisfaction of clients, engagement with software. 

0:31:52 - Mehmet
Yeah, that's really great advice there and a lot of people they think sometimes it's an easy job to do and I tell them no, it's not. I'm not a CTO myself by any means, but I'm a technologist. I come from a technology background. I work for technology leaders and I've seen the time and exactly the same thing you mentioned and actually it's an advice. I give it to anyone in technology, regardless if they want to go to the path of being part of a leadership team and they say you need to understand the business. Like, if you cannot understand the business, people will not understand what you're talking about. 

And this is the communication is very important. You can articulate this business need over there. Maybe now a question which is like and again, I'm not trying to make a point here or something like that what do you think is good for someone who want to take this entrepreneurship journey later? To start their career with a startup themselves or to go and work for a large company and learn how things get done? So which path do you think is more appropriate for someone who would be seeking to become an entrepreneur? 

0:33:11 - Ed
That's an awesome question. I get asked that question a lot too, and there's really two paths to take, and I think it depends on what kind of entrepreneur you want to be. There are people who are just complete visionaries and they have this idea and they have this blazing passion for the idea and nothing will stop them from achieving that right. And those are the people who disrupt a market in a really meaningful way. That's one path to take where you don't really have the skill set outside of the idea, and then you have to grow into that skill set. What I have seen people do that's really successful is go work at an established company of some kind and work in multiple groups Do a year as a salesperson, do a year as an engineer, do a year in some other function, and that allows you to really understand holistically how a business works and prepares you to be an effective CEO of a startup, because you understand how all those pieces come together to drive a business forward and you can make smart financial decisions. You can build a sales team when it's time that is effective, and you're not a single skill set person, you're a multi skill set person, and so those two things are different paths to the same destiny. 

The intense visionary is, I think, born that way. There's someone who has just made that way by nature. They have something they're passionate about. They think of ideas no one else has. The other one is a more methodical, pragmatic, kind of scientific approach where you learn how things work, you find your idea and then you execute it with a playbook. Both, I think, are equally valid and depend on the personality of the individual, and I've seen both be very successful and I've seen both fail. If you're the visionary, surround yourself with people who are excellent at the things that they do. And if you're the multifaceted individual, surround yourself with some visionaries who can bring that passion and fire to your team. 

0:35:08 - Mehmet
Yeah, and I think I would say always and I repeat it and my guests will repeat it and I think you will actually add I think failure is part of the journey, like you know there is no escape from failing. 

Okay, only few lucky ones. You know they succeed from the first start up. They do, and you know they continue their career this way. But majority of the time we will fail. We will do mistakes, which is fine, I would say, and we covered great things today. But you know any final, I would say, thoughts, anything you know you want to share with me today, with the audience, that maybe I didn't ask you about. 

0:35:48 - Ed
Actually, I will click down on your last comment a little bit. Failure is very key to success. If you're not failing, you're not taking enough risk right. And being able to internalize that failure, grow from that failure, learn from it, is essential to becoming really, really good at what you do. There's a phrase I like that's called fear is a liar, and fear of failure is going to prevent you from being exceptional. So you really have to go all in and be willing. You have to be vulnerable and be willing to suffer that emotional impact of failure, because that is how you you know it's an iron sharpens iron type of experience. You become really great at things by learning how not to do them, as much as you learn how to do them. And so I like my ideal profile for a manager in my group is someone who takes calculated risk and is not afraid to make a mistake and threat. 

0:36:41 - Mehmet
Yeah, that's great. Well, thank you very much. You know it was a really great. You know advices and insights from you and we talked about a lot of things with you today. I know like people can find the you know the website. I will put that in the show notes. But if you want to tell us where they can get more information about FIRE and about yourself as well, Sure. 

0:37:05 - Ed
So at firecom, we just literally relaunched our website. It's exceptional, it's really nice. If you want to learn about us, it's just wwwatfirecom. 

0:37:15 - Mehmet
Great. I will make sure that I will put this in the show notes and you know. Again, thank you very much for the time today. This is how I usually end my episodes, so for the audience, if you're first time here, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed. If you're listening on your favorite podcasting app, don't forget to subscribe. If you're watching this online, also, please subscribe. And if you are one of the, you know, loyal people who keep listening and send me their comments, please, please, please, keep sending them, please, sending your notes. I love reading them. Suggestions, feedback, something you like. You don't like, it doesn't matter. I love reading feedbacks a lot and if you are interested also to be on the show, don't hesitate to reach out to me. You have some experience you want to share with us. You are building something special you want to share about. Please don't hesitate to reach out to me. We'll find a way and we'll find the time to record together. And thank you very much for tuning in. We'll meet again very soon. Thank you, bye, bye.