#280 The AI Landscape in 2024 with Peter Swain

0:00:01 - Mehmet
Hello and welcome back to any episode of the CTO show with Mehmet. Happy new year 2024. This is our first episode for 2024 and today. Very pleased to have with me today Peter Swain. Peter, thank you very much for being on the show today. The way I like to do it is I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves, so the floor is yours. 

0:00:22 - Peter
Well, first of all, thank you for having me and yeah, my name is Peter Swain. Obviously, I'm from the UK the accent gives it away a little bit and I've been in Dev and Tech pretty much all my life. I started coding when I was six, on my first application at 12. Left high school, when I was 17 to become one of the first web developers in the UK. I built one of the developers on the UK version of Yelp in 1995. 

Then I set up a state in the web for a while, worked with people like Avaya, the Olympics, sony, colgate, williams, formula One, ford and Al. Then, mid-2000s, I created one of the first mobile agencies in Europe and worked with people like Microsoft, apple, google, jamie Oliver, ali G, sasha Brown, cohen, rental cars and a whole bunch of others. Did about 1400 digital marketing projects, had a brief career break in 2018 and then, at the beginning of this year, I set up an AI mastermind helping businesses, entrepreneurs, solo entrepreneurs, understand what this AI thing is and what it's doing and what it's going to do for them and where they need to pay attention. So yeah, here we are. 

0:01:35 - Mehmet
Great. I love this concept of masterminds, usually, peter, and I feel we need a lot of it. But before going deep dive, I would say in that do you think which is like very driver question maybe 2023. We saw a lot of news hype about AI, so how are you seeing this in 2024 and beyond, of course? Are we seeing the same, I would say, fast-paced movement in this domain? Are we slowing down a little bit? What are your expectations? 

0:02:14 - Peter
I think 2023 it was underhyped. I think we're going to see more and I think what we're going to see in 2024 is the real world implications of what these paradigm shifts are. So in my time, I've seen three paradigm shifts in tech, which was the web, mobile and AI. So, for example, I wouldn't put social media in the world of a paradigm shift, because humans still interact the same way that humans interact. But the web allowed you to essentially reach anyone anywhere. Mobile allowed you to reach anyone anywhere, wherever you are, and AI is around how it's the first technology since the spinning Jenny in the industrial revolution. That's essentially. Its remit is not to help you do what you do better, cheaper, quicker, faster. The remit of AI is to do it instead of you doing it. So it changes the fabric of capitalism. It changes the way that we interact with value and scarcity and core concepts that are the underpinning of the way most economies work, and it changes those. So we're going to see massive, massive changes in the workforce in the next few months. 

0:03:30 - Mehmet
So if we want to, you know like kind of dissect this more and discuss this into more details, so first let's have a look on industries in general. So are we seeing, as people were mentioning a lot, in 2023, a lot of jobs will be lost the way even some industries might not exist anymore. So how these things will take shape more in 2024. 

0:03:59 - Peter
Yeah, well, this, this. If you broadly split this down, there's two different categories. There's businesses that operate that sell products, and then there are businesses that sell services, and the disruption in those is going to be very different. In physical product businesses, you know stuff that you can physically knock on. We can't replicate that with AI. We maybe we can with 3d printing in five, ten years, but right now we still need somebody to manufacture the water bottle for me to be able to use the water bottle. So where their focus and priority will shift is how do we reduce costs and how do we increase revenue. So how do we use tools like AI, personas, virtualization, automation in order to to drive those numbers? And if you take a stereotypical business doing, say, a 20% profit margin, if you decrease the cost by 20% and increase the profit by 40%, that's a 40% bottom line difference and this is very quick math, but it means that profit margins can double or triple, which means that more money can go into advertising, more money can go into marketing, more money can go into customer acquisition. So those businesses then start accelerating ahead of their competition quite quickly. 

The issue we have is that Covid kind of taught everybody that we live in a bubble and we work on our own and we don't. We compete against other people all day long. Again, back to nature of capitalism. So if you have one business that's highly efficient and another business that's inefficient, then you start seeing the Netflix blockbuster type paradigm very, very quickly. You start seeing the you know, traditional real estate agent versus the zeros of the world very, very quickly because of the pure efficiency of those business models. So that's them one. Then, on the second side of things, we have service-based businesses, and service-based businesses as well see the largest or the quickest disruption or the most obvious acute disruption. 

For example, a friend of mine runs a VC in Silicon Valley. I showed him how to use Claude, one of the AI tools that we have available at our disposal, to analyze P&Ls balance sheets, cash flow statements and investment documents, and his response was to Let go of 22 analysts within the day. So he literally fired 22 people within the day. He kept his seniors, but he lost all of his juniors and all of his trainees and all of his interns. I want to ask him why he's like. 

You just did in A minute what they take two weeks to do now. You didn't do it as well as they do. But you did it in a minute. They take two weeks. So how can I, as the steward of the company is they owner of, sharehold of and stakeholder value? How can I spend a hundred K to 200 K per annum on A person that takes two weeks to do what you can do in just just over a minute? So you're gonna start seeing that level. 

It's not gonna be all. It's lose one, two or three. It's. It's gonna be widespread. For example, I was just speaking to a Lady that runs a voiceover agency. I'm successful literally this is about half an hour ago successful 80 couple million dollars worth of revenue and she's shutting the business down Because because she can't sell a voiceover anymore, because you don't need it 11 labs and chat GPT can do it for you. So we're certainly gonna see massive amounts of disruption in the job market and there'll be a more clear version of winners and losers and really it comes down to who has adopted AI and who hasn't. That's gonna be, I Think, the largest differentiating fact in the success or failure of a business in 2024. 

0:07:49 - Mehmet
Yeah, that's. I'm hearing like similar stories from different industries, especially, for example, simple graphic designers and you know these kinds of things that AI can can do now. So they are losing business now. The thing is which I would try to relate these two together so people will, obviously, we lose jobs, right, but at the same time, we started to see people who are leveraging, they are to become solopreneurs and entrepreneurs, to your point when you started it. So how is this trend also going to shape or take shape in in in this year? 

0:08:23 - Peter
well, the problem or the the? The question is we talk about this, as you know, the phrase of displacement versus disruption. So if a person a, b and C lose their job over here, where do they go? Now, what has traditionally happened is, if you look at blue color workers, white color workers, people with entrepreneurial instincts, then they fall into those buckets that you just said. So, absolutely, you could now like. 

I'll give you an example a friend of mine used Dali and mid-journey image generation AI to produce a headphone stand, something that you you hook your headphones on to, and did it in a, in a gauntlet, and also did it as a spider and did it as a bear. I don't know why this, this thing, was his thing, but he used the image of the image generators to generate the images of these new products that he wanted. He then put those on fiver and got designers from second and third world countries of different price points, from an American or European or whatever it might be Just as good, but just not as available to put together the CAD models, the 3d models, for those products and then got a drop shipper in China to start producing them. So he went from Wouldn't it be cool if there was a spider holding my headphones for gamers to a product ready to drop ship within 48 hours. And so it certainly does. These new tools do give people with an entrepreneurial instinct a mechanism and a route to delivery that they wouldn't have otherwise had, in the same way that youtube gave people the ability to produce, gave people the ability to broadcast a tv show Without the need to do tv level production. 

The problem is not everybody wants to do a youtube show. Not everybody has the inclination to do a youtube show. Therefore, the, the, the transfer isn't A major market sector, same with entrepreneurialism. Not many people as a percentage of population have that driving them to say I know, I want to do a pair of spider headphones. 

So traditionally what has happened is, when you get a displacement of this degree say you go from oil power to Wind power for a country, you'll find coal miners and their family starts to move into agricultural work, factory work, industrial work, distribution, logistics and other blue collar work jobs. The problem we have right now Is that not only are we bringing around an ai revolution, we're also bringing around a self-driving truck and car revolution at the same time, and we're also bringing around a robotic, an automation side of things as well. So somebody was a you know somebody's working in a factory and for someone that manages to bring ai and to cut down their workforce by 10%, where does that 10% go? Because the other industries that they would normally go to logistics, factory, agriculture, et cetera are going through their own revolutions in their own ways. So, yes, we are gonna displace and allow a new breed of entrepreneurialism, which is awesome and amazing, but at the same time, we're also gonna have whole pockets of communities and societies that become relatively unemployable. 

0:12:03 - Mehmet
Yeah, which is now. The question is and I asked this last year a lot so maybe not in 2024, but are we going to a place where we don't have to work? Peter, do you think this is something on one of the possibilities? 

0:12:19 - Peter
Yeah, so it all depends on the timeline that you're looking at. So there's a group of people I think they're called 30Y or something. I ran into them last year, I can't remember the name, but it's a group of very high level thinkers, philosophers, designers, architects, poets, businessmen, and they refer to what their concept is that we have a 30 year problem. So what they're saying is, if we get beyond 30 years, it starts to look like a kind of Star Trek utopia. So we've solved heart disease, we've solved climate change sorry, excuse me we've solved stroke and Alzheimer's and we've beaten bugs that have become antibiotic resistant and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But if you look in the naught to 30 years, that's where we have a problem. So it's a. Their question is how do we get through this naught to 30 year piece and, more specifically, I would say, the next naught to five years of how do we get through the next five years? 

We're still or not we, but there's a case in I think it's New York that refers to a crime that happened to a US citizen perpetrated by a European citizen on a server in Latin America, and this was in the early 2000s and they're still trying to work out the jurisdiction of the case. They're still trying to work out where the crime was committed. Was it what gives it committed? Where the person, where the customer was, where the perpetrator was or where the server was. So if we can't work that out in 20 years, it shows how far the legal systems and political systems lag behind the technology and the innovation and AI is going so quickly and so fast. Literary is a week by week job to try and keep up, or day by day to keep up with what's now happened, how the political systems and the economic systems and the legal systems ever gonna keep up with a technology that is moving at the speed of this one's moving. 

0:14:33 - Mehmet
And I think, peter, even this discussion because I had it before with even within the education system as well, because with the fast pace of AI and what's going on, even universities, colleges, they are not able even to match what's outside in the world with what they teach the students. 

0:14:55 - Peter
So Well, education is interesting because, if you look back, it was essentially a Germanic. 

The way that we now have education now, it was essentially a Germanic concept that was shipped across Europe and shipped across the States on how we teach kids, and it was designed to be the feeder for the industrial complex. It was never designed to actually educate people. It was never designed to inspire people. It was designed to provide daycare whilst factory workers were in factories and produced the next level of factory workers for the factories. So I think education being disrupted is not a bad thing, because I don't know how many days, hours, weeks, months I spent learning about how volcano forms and I have no use for that information whatsoever, whereas the critical thinking that I was blessed with because I left high school and this is a. It's funny to me that people can't remember this, but when I was building Yellcouk, google didn't exist yet, so it wasn't a case of oh, how do I do this? I'll go and Google it or I'll go and watch a tutorial on YouTube I had to figure out why it wasn't working, and that was an incredibly useful skill. 

Last year, the collective IQ of the planet dropped for the first time ever. They have this way of testing an average of every country or something, and every year up until last year, the average IQ went up, and last year was the first time ever the average IQ went down. Now that may or may not be a good thing. Maybe we don't need IQ anymore, maybe that's an abstract concept, but it's just interesting to reflect. So if education is being disrupted, personally I think that's a great thing, because we don't need to remember, to remember stuff. 

That is an unnecessary thing. I still remember my scope number and my CompuServe ID. 1.545.1440 was my CompuServe ID, like when I was 11. And that's, it's not necessary. That's using up calories and brain power. I need to know that. You know. If you lose your phone now, how would you phone even your wife or your kids? Like, do you know them? Do you actually know their number? It's just an interesting question. So, education this you know. Teaching kids wrote how to remember a set of facts. It is fascinating. I would not like to be in that space of working out how you educate children and, as a parent, I am kind of in that space of how do you educate children for a future that looks so different to the present that you're in? Yeah, that's a very, very interesting question, but it's also the same question for companies. How do you structure a company today, knowing that the future of that company is going to look entirely different, even potentially a year down the line? 

0:18:10 - Mehmet
And actually this is was my next question to you, peter. Now, how, as a business owner today, I'm seeing all these pieces moving very fast how I make sure, first, that my company is AI ready I can actually, you know, bring this technology to my business and second, is it enough just to use some few tools? Because the problem is, honestly, peter, what I've seen in 2023, there is this conception that AI is just chat, gpt, right, so that, or Claude, or whatever. So, first, how we can make sure that we're ready to use the AI and second, how we keep this as an ongoing process. 

0:18:55 - Peter
Yeah, it's a great question. The first thing I would say is to actually be sounds a bit silly, but to be business ready. We spoke about the mastermind that I run, so we've had about 10,000 conversations with businesses, business owners, in the last year. I don't know the exact number, but it's certainly in that realm. And what surprised me was the amount of people that don't really understand their own business. They don't understand what we call the straight line Like how does somebody that is out there in the world end up as your customer at full utilization? So full value offering and full transaction for that value. So how do you, how does that work for people? And most people don't understand that. So they actually don't understand their own business. 

For a start I would say that's the number one is to have a very deep understanding of the business and to have simplified it as much as it needs to be simplified to understand what the business does. That's number one. Number two is put use committees, chief AI officers, in order to keep a flexibility, fluidity and speed in a separate team. So the larger you get, the slower it normally becomes. Break that team away and give them a fairly wide reaching remit and the reason those two then put together equal 0.3, which is do not do not do not look at the tool and then see where you can use the tool. Instead, look at your business, find the inefficiencies in your business or the metrics that could be moved to be most effective, and then find the tool that will achieve that goal. So let's take an example of the friend I mentioned earlier that did the spider headphone stands. 

0:20:43 - Mehmet
Yeah. 

0:20:44 - Peter
Yes, he used Dali in mid journey to create the image of what that could look like, but he then didn't use the AI tools to create that into a 3D model. He sent that to Fiverr and got somebody to do it for 50 bucks, because the AI tools around 3D rendering and 3D drawings aren't yet good enough. They're not production ready and if they are production ready, they're so expensive at such price points that they're inaccessible. So why would you do that when you can send it to somebody for $50 and have it done? That is the right way to use the tool. If you look at his journey, it's great. I'm gonna use Dali in mid journey to create the images, to get the concept of my head out into the world. Then I'm gonna use an independent contractor on Fiverr to turn that into a 3D model, and then I'm gonna use a drop shipping company in China in order to produce that model and sell that model to somebody else. That's a perfect entrepreneurial journey, which is what is the straight line. You know what is the thing I need to get done and what are the right tools to use at the right points. So for everybody, I would say one is to make sure you understand your business, make sure you understand your custom, make sure you understand what they're truly buying from you. 

As an example, I did a consultancy a long, long time ago for the Guardian newspaper group in the UK and they were of the opinion that their product was journalism. And my point to them was well, if your product is journalism, you're not very good at it, because the plane had just landed on the Hudson and I can't remember the exact numbers, but Twitter had reported it in 30 seconds, and Facebook in a minute, and the cable news within an hour, and the Guardian obviously the next day, the next morning, right. So if your product is journalism, you're not very good at journalism because Twitter did it in 30 seconds, whereas what you did really well is you do editorial really well, because what the Guardian really sell is that if the Guardian says it happens, then I believe that it happened. That's what the Guardian sells. So, understand your business, understand your customer, understand what you're selling, but understand more what they're buying. And once you have that done, then you can start looking at these AI tools and seeing where you can implement them and where they're going to be impactful. 

0:23:07 - Mehmet
Yeah, but One of the things and I'm not sure if you would agree with me, peter I had some discussions with it's not like, okay, sometimes they understand their business but they don't have enough data they don't have. They didn't have any Exercise in the past to collect, you know, basic, basic data, right. So about whether it's transactions and you know, and they think that the AI is just something you hook it up and then it work by itself magically, right. 

0:23:37 - Peter
If you say to me that somebody understands their business but they don't have data, then I would say that they don't understand. 

0:23:43 - Mehmet
Yeah, exactly. So Other than this, what do you think other challenges they can face internally? 

0:23:50 - Peter
I Think that there's gonna be a fear from people as to how their jobs work, which is why I think train. You know, there's a this, this adage that was touted in 2023, which is that people will either master AI or work for somebody that has mastered AI. Don't know. If you've heard yeah, yes, yeah, I think it's incorrect, because I have mastered AI. Why would I ever hire somebody that hasn't that? That wouldn't make sense to me. Why would I want to go back to only getting Six, five, six hours worth of output out of somebody instead of being able to get 20 hours worth of output out of somebody in a day? So I'm not gonna hire people that don't have a good understanding of AI. So one of the other challenges I think you'll find is in the human adoption of people. You know, when any change happens, especially at this stage, people can get scared and and it makes sense, right, it makes sense. So I would say a minimum level of training in Practitioner and like an AI practitioner course for people would be a really good idea for companies number one and number two. I would make sure that you have very fluid lines of innovation. 

There's this famous story once of Toyota that saved millions of dollars Because they had this dropbox for people to put suggestions. And if you put a suggestion that the Toyota group adopted, you got a percentage of the money. Earn all the money saved. And a janitor Walking through a factory one night put it in a dropbox, turn the lights off Because he realized that it was a robotic factory and it was fully lit fully lit like you don't need Lights in a robotic factory, so instead turn the lights off. Save a bunch of money. So this fluid path for innovation to happen, whether it's just a dropbox or something else, is incredibly valuable and useful. 

0:25:46 - Mehmet
Yeah, 100%. One thing I think I missed to ask you regarding the predictions, and you know we've seen Some names which were leading the AI race. I would say last year, mainly open AI, we saw like little bit Microsoft and some people said and some people they say like these guys like are so ahead that the rest cannot catch up with them. And the reason I keep asking and I kept asking this question, because now there are big talks and fear of having monopoly when it comes to AI, having everything in the hand of one company. So are we continuing to see the leadership of open AI slash Microsoft, or are we seeing like the rest? Of course I know like anthropic was glowed. 

0:26:34 - Peter
They have done some work. 

0:26:35 - Mehmet
I know Google was bored. They've done some work, and Jim and I but always we are feeling that as if the open AI guys are like 10 steps ahead, if not more than the rest. So what do you think will happen in this space? 

0:26:50 - Peter
I think it's gonna look a lot like the EV, the electronic vehicle space, where Tesla is obviously so far ahead. But then everybody starts catching up and walking into it. So I do think open AI, microsoft will stay leader of the pack for the year. I think that anthropic will start merging with some of our cameras, and because one of the things that has to remember is the sheer cost of training these AI models and the alams is is monstrous. This isn't a fact, but it was touted as an opinion that for every person that's paying open AI, 20 bucks. Open AI is a very important thing. Open AI are essentially paying a hundred bucks For that person to have a $20 service. So these are the type of numbers we're talking about to execute this level of Tech power on a better word. So open AI, I think you'll see closer affiliations with Amazon going forwards. I would never count Google out. I think Google are being a bit slower to the race Because Google, google's business is the accurate proof yeah, I, the deployment, delivery of accurate data. So if there are data that isn't accurate, it becomes a real problem for them, whereas for other people in generative AI it's not such a problem. So I think Google will catch up. 

I think Apple are in a lot of trouble because Apple's security first, privacy first mindset which is laudable and very respectful, is gonna start being a hampering issue for them. How do you do something on the device and you're negating the cloud computing power that sits behind it? It's one of the reasons that we still have problems with the Apple voice assistants I won't assume by name because they'll start going off at me Because it's all happening on your device. The actual amount of computing power is very small in relative terms to something like Amazon Alexa, which has got this whole massive compute cloud behind it. So I think Apple are gonna struggle in this area. It's gonna be fascinating to see what they do and how they're gonna have to essentially shift some of their values. I think they're gonna have to walk away from this device-only, cloud-only type mindset. Facebook, I think, are very interesting. There doesn't seem to be a very specific thread to what they're doing at the moment. It's a bit hard to gauge. 

Open AI, I think, will stay leader of the pack, and what will also be interesting in terms of predictions is 2024 will be the year where you said it earlier about monopolies, where we start seeing the browser wars that we had when Microsoft being sued for monopoly back in the 90s. We're gonna start seeing the same thing again because Google Gemini, as an example is training itself on YouTube data, youtube videos, but they're precluding and excluding people getting access to train on that data. So you're just gonna start seeing Google using Gmail and Google Calendar and Google and YouTube as training sources for BARD or Gemini or whatever. The next version is that Open AI then can't get to, which is monopolistic At the same time. I understand it because Google owns the rights to YouTube, so why shouldn't they? But at the same time, if everybody else then can't train on it, it then becomes a fascinating question. So I think we'll start seeing some real monopoly issues. 

We've just started seeing some IP issues now really take turn New York Times Presta case yesterday. I believe it's Open AI and I think we're gonna see a moat around AI because, for those that don't know, you can't take stuff out of an LLM, a large language model. It's like putting a drop of oil in the ocean. You can't take stuff out afterwards. So what's gonna happen to IP claims and copyright claims is gonna be fascinating. So if you can't take stuff out, I think the only way to do it is to put a moat around it, so it becomes a filtration, and use a framework such as the DMCA in order to control not what's in the LLMs but what the LLMs are allowed to say. So I do think we're gonna start seeing some issues there. And then my final one is I would say by the end of this year, as in 2024, I think, we'll see the first piece of copyright or IP ownership assigned to AI. So again, for those that don't know, the Supreme Court's in the US and UK have both judged that AI cannot have a copyright because it's not human. But to me those resemble the same set of conversations that happened in the 90s when we talked about is a designer that uses Photoshop still a designer? Because again, I'm showing my age here, but I can remember artists saying that Photoshop was gonna put them out of business because now anybody can do it and they can do it so quickly and it's no longer art and you're encroaching on my boundaries and obviously that isn't true. It was just a tool. 

And just final thing on this, I tested this in my naive anecdote away by asking my daughter to use mid-journey. So I literally sat down she's eight years old and she typed in. I'm like tell it what you want it to do. And she typed in a squirrel wearing a crown sitting on a block of cheese. And she took it to her mom and said look what I made. And it's really important and it's such a nuanced answer. But I love the language of children because it tells the truth. 

She didn't say look what it made. She didn't say look what the computer made. She said look what I made. In her view, she created that artwork through the mechanism of a prompt. Now, what is the difference between creating an artwork through the mechanism of a touchpad and a keyboard and a computer versus using a prompt to do it? So then my broad AI predictions. I also think we'll see the first AI only music in the top, let's say, the top 20 charts, maybe not the top 10, but at least the top 20. Really, you think so? Okay, cool. The only person that's wrong in the world of tech is the person that says it can't be done. 

0:33:23 - Mehmet
I agree with you. I agree with you and to your point. I think there were discussions. Toward the end of the year, I feel, someone wrote a letter to Sam Altman asking him to open source the model, of course, not the data. The data actually it's massive, it's huge, and I think the advantage that they took because they were doing this without anyone knowing what they were doing, they were doing it. And then now some browsers, actually they can figure out if an AI bot is trying to to get the information or to scrape the information out of your website. So actually, you can even deny this. So all these predictions are very valid and I'm with you. There's nothing impossible here. Now, the final thing I want to ask you, and this is also something you remember the story when Sam was fired and rehired and all this and some people claim about they came up with the AGI, the Artificial General Intelligence. He said, no, that still need time. But do you think like we are close to it or we still need some time to reach that? 

0:34:38 - Peter
I think we're pretty close to it. It's, you know, mo Gada left Google when he realized the way that AI neural networks last language models learn, mimic the way the humans learn. So I think we're pretty close to it. I don't. I think it might be a very dumb general intelligence to begin with, but I think that self-learning AI is probably around a year away, so maybe not 2024, but we're certainly getting close to something that we can do. 

I think the more interesting for me is in the field. It's always around the humanization. Now I got into web when Netscape Navigator and NCSA Mosaic was launched, which was the first browser just before Internet Explorer. You know, the web existed for 20, 30 years before that, but it wasn't humanized yet. We didn't get it as humans. I got into mobile when I bought my first iPhone, the 3GS. But you know the Nokia 911 communicator and the Palm pilots have been around for long before that. So it's not really the sophistication of the tech that ever speaks to the adoption of the tech. It's the humanization of the tech. So I think for me, things like real-time video, avatars, real-time voice translation, voice generation are the more interesting areas, because that's the thing that's going to allow this to go from a tech crowd to the masses 100%, I agree. 

0:36:09 - Mehmet
I think this is one of the reasons, in my opinion, that actually accelerated the adoption, because when even someone non-tech-key at all starts to use 11 labs and they start to do massive production of videos and clips and so on, and people love them actually because they are putting the human touch, utilizing the AI and all this for example, faceless YouTube channels that were also hyping last year A lot of things waiting for us this year and beyond. I would say, peter, I really appreciate the time. Any final thoughts before we call it? 

0:36:50 - Peter
Yeah, I guess we hope I really get some board. Whether you like AI or not really isn't the question. I don't like paying tax, but that's not something I can choose not to do. We set up an AI mastermind, which I'd love people to check us out. 

0:37:04 - Mehmet
Yes, please, If you can share that where we can find about that, Peter. 

0:37:08 - Peter
Yeah, it's ROAI, like return on artificial intelligence, roaimastermindcom. We have a two-week free trial, no credit card down, so people can come and see what we do and if they like it, great. If they don't, don't. We try and be very boring and very practical, which is how do we help you make money and how do we help you save money? That's our goals, because it goes back to that analogy of you can either sit on the wrecking ball or you can stand in front of it as it swings through your business. They're the two choices, and I hope people decide to sit on the wrecking ball and destroy their own businesses and instead of standing in front of it going, what do I do next? 

0:37:44 - Mehmet
I hope the same as well, because if I believe they don't do this now, they would be forced to do it at some stage, so it's better to act early on that. Peter, thank you very much for these great insights about AI and how we can adopt it in business and the prediction for 2024 and beyond. I really enjoyed that conversation and for the link that Peter mentioned. You would be able to find it in the show notes, so if you're listening on your favorite podcasting app or you're watching this on YouTube, so you can find it in the description, and this is how we end every episode. So thank you everyone for showing the support and sending me the feedbacks. Keep them coming. The community is growing and thank you for everyone. I hope this year would be also a successful year for everyone and, as I mentioned previously, we are adding more themes to the podcast, so we're going to have more theme-based episodes based on what would be happening around us, and thank you for tuning in. We'll see you again very soon. Thank you, bye-bye.