#298 Yuri Dvoinos on Building a Cyber-Resilient Society with AI

Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me from Dubai Yuri Yuri, thank you very much for being on the show today It's my pleasure to to have you and i'm happy because i'm having more guests nowadays from Dubai So without further ado Yuri, the way I love to do it is I keep it to my guests to tell us more about themselves and what they do.

So the floor is yours.  

Thank you, Mehmet. And thank you very much for having me. Pleasure being here. My name is Yuri Dvoynos. I am a chief innovation officer at Aura. com. A U R A. com. It's a cybersecurity company.  Uh, I sold my last startup to Aura. com, Figlyph. Uh, and, uh, now I drive their innovation function from there.

Our primary domain of expertise is cyber security, and we, of course, use a lot of AI to, uh, to fight the scams and, uh, all of that. Interestingly, I've done, uh, while living out of Dubai. So, actually, this is my 10th year and I've been living in the city for, for, for 10 years.  And it's always nice to connect with, uh, folks in this, from the same area. 

That's fantastic. And thank you again, Yuri, for being with me here today. Actually, uh, you know, even we were talking about before we started, you know, to, to record this podcast, we have, we share a lot, uh, regarding, you know, the, the, you know, Passion for technology, especially when it comes to cyber security, AI and all this.

But before that, you know, this is something I always like to ask founders like yourself, like first, like what have brought you to this field specifically and how, you know, the idea. Came to you and then you decided that okay This is something that it's worth to start to build and then make it on a larger 

scale  You know, it's a great question.

And thank you for asking this. It feels like I've always been in this space  At some point so I launched my first startup  With a good friend of mine and also a buddy from the university. So just by the time we were graduating from the national technical university of Ukraine, we started a company, uh, which is now called Clario  and it's a cybersecurity company, uh, which was focused then on, uh, Apple computers primarily.

And I guess the reason we started this company is, uh, this was, there was a large space of cybersecurity companies for Windows. And there was literally nothing for Apple computers. We absolutely wanted to do something. And, uh, of course the jobs was around the space was incredibly innovative. So this was, um, it was a real pleasure working in the, in the ecosystem. 

And, uh,  uh, we got to the point where, uh, we created something really valuable. Uh, we got to 15 million downloads of our software within a couple of years and, uh,  all of that being bootstrapped and we started to,  we started to launch more, uh, more products and more, uh, companies, if you will, in, in other domains as well.

Like one of the other fun things we did was the hardware startup, which is, uh, called, uh, playjammy. com. It's the most portable, uh, MIDI guitar in the world. Uh, I gotta be honest with you, Mehmet, uh, not every single company that, uh, I did, uh, like went wild. There were lots and lots of ups and downs. And, uh, at some point, and then you always.

You always want to, uh, you know, make the din in the universe or come up with something that's really valuable. That's just, I think that's the nature of the beast. And at some point of time, um,  uh, as we were working in cybersecurity, all this time and many products that we launched was, uh, in the cybersecurity, but also exploring other domains.

At some point of time, I fell in love with the framework called design thinking. Um, design thinking really helped me to understand how to build products with, um, That are human centered. Um, and I launched the initiative for half a year, which was a pure design thinking initiative, like a small cross functional team that was exploring different pain points. Design thinking initiative, it really helped us to understand how to build, uh, human centric products. And of course we had a challenge like, uh, every. Every other design thinking initiative has, we actually wanted to tackle the software distribution  and ironically, very quickly, the design thinking, uh, squad, uh, came back to me and said, look, that, that sort of problem looks very promising, but  you know what I mean?

It's not, it's, it's, it's, it's not, doesn't resonate with people. It's not that sort of problem that people are going nuts about. Uh, but there are lots of other problems that we have discovered. And I was like, okay, sure, tell me more. And, uh, one of the problems that we have discovered was related to the privacy. 

People were very concerned and this was back in 2017, if I'm not mistaken. So way before, uh, Cambridge analytics and before privacy was cool. And this was really the moment where I got back on the track with the cybersecurity and we're like, okay, so the data misuse, all the data breaches and everything, how data is being used against people is really like a massive problem that's about to blow up.

And this is where.  I got all in and I launched this last startup of, of mine for now called Figleaf. And this is how the journey of Figleaf began. And, uh, from there,  uh, well, I'll let, I can, I can keep going with the story on what happened,  this is how we land on the, on the, on the cybersecurity again. So we started from there and then, uh, my last startup, I ended from there.

I guess it's just such a massive problem that. Keeps, you know, following you just, you know, so many unsolved things here. 

Absolutely. Now,  one thing, you know, which I think, uh, we agreed on that also, uh, before  cyber security for consumers or for people. Who are not into the tech space is very much in my opinion underrated.

And I think  I can understand this because even, you know, when I talk to business owners who are like usually by themselves, so we see that there's a a problem there because they don't understand cyber security the way. So first. Yuri, I want to ask you, why do you think, despite like all the information we have around, despite all, um, you know, sometimes even now banks, they do these awarenesses to their customers, like  the government also here, especially in Dubai, you know, they, they keep, you know, sending us, you know, these emails, like don't open attachment, be aware of scammers, but why do you think the problem Is ever growing like, is it because we are lazy because you know, we, we are distracted.

I'm trying here to understand, you know, the, the, the reasons behind the problem and then, you know, we can discuss how you're trying to solve this. 

Yeah, no, it's a, it's a fundamental one, right? Um,  in,  in the cyber security, I tend to think there are two things. One is the tools or the tooling, like what sort of technology are you using to your advantage in order to protect yourself or the channels, the systems that you have?

And the other thing of course, is the education, like how. prepared are you to recognize, to react? Like, do you know what to do? And I think those two, they, uh, come hand in hand. Uh, to be honest with you, Mehmet, I don't think that we are being lazy. I think, uh, to our credit and that's specifically here in Dubai, I think, uh, Dubai is doing an incredible job in, uh, bringing awareness.

Uh, and a lot of people are aware that scams are happening. It's just that they're getting bigger. They're growing. Uh, the way I think about this is almost like an organized crime. I think it's seems to be a business in the end of the day, people are still in money and it's becoming a bigger business. And I think, um, with all the technology that we have around us.

I think the ways of scams, they're changing as well. Um,  I like to tell the story that, you know, I've been working in cybersecurity one way or another since 2019, not 2009. So that's a lot of years. And I still got hacked a couple of years ago. And, uh, uh, the way I got hacked, uh, I got scammed actually, not hacked.

I got scammed.  It's very painful to talk about this. It's a very frustrating experience to me because I tend to believe that, you know, I'm very good. At least I know all the things that are there.  Um, so let me tell you a story. My, um, sure  I have a, uh, you know, we all pay utility bills and, um, the, um, the community that, uh, where I lived.

Uh, I, I, I knew a lady from this community who we would exchange emails all the time because you always have to do something in Dubai, fix this, fix there. It's just an ongoing process. Right. And she would always, um, send me the annual, uh, the annual bill.  Uh, and because I know her very well, I know her style, the way she would like, she would always. 

start her email with, hello, Mr. Yuri, how are you today? Like it's pretty generic, but this is her style. And she would always finish the email with something very specific. So she would have a very, very specific writing style or writing patterns. And I think someone, uh, I'm actually, I don't think I, we know for a fact that someone has hacked. 

Um, her email, uh,  account and was watching for all the conversations she had. And you can imagine how many clients, this company, yeah. So the utility company, it's, uh, the account management, uh, account manager in the utility company, reality, uh, they correspond with hundreds of customers. So if you can plug into those conversations and you know, the style of the account manager, all it takes now to come up with a draft, uh, similar in the style is literally to tell AI, Hey, read those emails and come up with this draft saying that in the same style.

That's literally all it takes. So it is very easy to mimic, uh, the style of another person if you have this content, so you can train the model. Uh, and it's very, very simple, fast training. It doesn't even take a lot of time.  It's really like one prompt. And then all you need to do is because they know, uh, all the customers emails.

And they know all the threads of the ongoing conversation. They just inject, they do the email hijacking, uh, kind of conversation hijacking where they send you an email. So you think that you still interact with the same person and that email has like one, uh, symbol difference. It looks exactly the same.

The beginning of the email looks exactly the same. It's maybe the domain address is slightly different with the subtle, uh, difference. And if you miss that,  then you're screwed. You think you're continuing the conversation, but in reality, you're not talking to someone you're, you know, you thought you are, and this is how they got you.

This is, this is relatively new. Um, I think it was popular for the enterprise attacks. This vector of attack, the email hijacking was very popular for the enterprise where Unigo, CEO. Of a large oil and gas company negotiates a deal with a contractor and it's a 5 million deal. You hijack the conversation, you share a fake invoice for a prepayment and off you go. 

You know, you just stole a lot of money. But for consumers, for, for a utility company, it's, it's a little bit of an expensive attack, I, I was thinking, but apparently everything got so automized and the technology is. Uh, being worked out so well that it makes financial sense for scammers to, to pursue end consumers, which was my case.

I didn't lose a lot of money, but it was just so, so frustrating for me to go through this experience because I really, the scam really got me.  

Uh,  you, you know, like Yuri, you, you touch on a very important point and this is even, you know, I always dealt with, with enterprises and even, you know, like they're, we need to, to, to convey the message to them.

Uh,  because I've been in this space also like for a long time,  what you mentioned is very  true. And these guys, I all, you know, this is, I hear this from, from, from, uh, you know, a colleague that we used to work together. He, he taught me, you know, because I was like in a consultancy site. So we needed to use a story to tell them.

And the story we used to tell people is that these guys, I mean, the bad actors. are like us. They have families, they have commitments, they have bills to pay also themselves. So they need to be creative in, in, in, you know, and innovative in getting new ways of attacks. And, you know, every time I started to see, and I, uh, as a, uh, you know, someone who's passionate about cybersecurity also as well, I always follow and, you know, from social media sometimes.

Um, from France, these new stories and you know what you're telling me is, is, is, you know, a really next, next level, I would say. Now, you mentioned AI, Yuri.  Can AI protect us? Because we know that they are using AI as well. So for me, as someone, you know, sitting, can I leverage AI  to detect if there's It's probably a scam or probably someone is trying to hack me.

And you know,  I'm not asking this question, you know, as a, as a techie guy. Now I'm removing my techie hat and I'm asking this on behalf of someone who might, you know, be sitting now at home or they are in the office listening to us and trying to understand if AI can help me while knowing that the other side also is using AI. 

Yeah, no, absolutely. There is a lot of bots around AI. And I feel like every single year there is hype around something, right? So, uh, one year it was crypto, the other one was, uh, Metaverse. Now it's AI, but AI is really different in my opinion. Uh, it's really this general purpose, fundamental technology that  will, in my opinion, touch almost every single aspect of the business or the industries.

There are so many use cases,  uh, for ai. Uh, there is a reason, uh, MRS have, uh, a mini  ministry for AI because there are lots of, lots of use cases we, uh, that can be unlocked for productivity. So it's a very powerful technology and there's absolutely an arms race, uh, between both sides. And, um, what I just described, the style, um, the, the mimic and the writing style of a person you know, is a very, very, um, powerful technique.

Apparently, based on my research, we as human beings, we are using the, um,  uh, when we read a message, we recognize person by the style of writing.  So you would know that someone is, this is not your mom, if the, if the, the style of writing would be different from how your mom would, would, uh, would, uh, talk to you or would send you a message.

So that is almost like a social hack, but the, but in order to accomplish it. A lot of AI, AI technology is being applied, but ironically, ironically, the same  vectors, the email hijacking, and can also be quite easily, at least for now, recognized by AI. So the, all of this, uh, the thing that I shared and mentioned about this one substantial change in the email.

It's actually, it's very difficult for us to, um, to check every single email for all the signs for scams. Just we don't, we don't have time for that to be honest with you, but it's super easy for AI to do that. There is absolutely no problem for AI system to check every single ongoing email and see, okay, is there anything shady with that email going on?

So yes. We absolutely should use AI for our benefits and for our purpose. And I, to my, my honest experience, my honest opinion, I think that, uh, we're just in the very, very beginning of that wave.  Um,  email and writing style is just one thing that's happening, but there are so much more, uh, you can, you used to, it used to be a new thing where you could have, uh, mimic a writing style.

Now you can have mimic a voice.  And it doesn't, and people would say, well, well, it's difficult, right? That's expensive. And I would say, no, it's actually not. You can, all you need to do is to have a couple seconds sample of the voice of the person you you're trying to mimic and off you go. You can come up with your own, uh, AI voice generator that talks.

If not exactly, then at least very similar to your voice and someone can pretend to write like you and then also can pretend to sound like you.  And then of course you can, uh, you can do the face swapping technologies and, uh,  VFX technology. In order to look like, uh, someone else. So that is, uh, that is your deep fake technologies that are being rev revolutionized and being used.

Uh, more and more ha more frequently. Right now they're being used for more targeted attacks, but fundamentally, I'm asking myself a question like, can you trust things that you. See, you're right. You, you hear, you watch, um, in five years. I don't know. I, I think it's a big problem and I think, um, it will take us some time to figure this all out, but the trust for online communication or, uh, content exchange.

It's, uh, yeah, it's going to be challenged.  

It will be indeed, like no doubt in this, uh,  uh, Yuri, I can see it coming. But again, you know, to, to, to the point I was trying to, to, to, to explain, um, it's not about being lazy. It's because many things going around. And, you know, these attacks being, being, uh,  Uh,  you know, sophisticated more and more.

Now, let me ask you, like,  because, you know, you try now to, to reach to millions of people. So  from, from your perspective, what are like some of the strategies?  that you have employed and you try always like also to keep to to to put within, you know, the platform that you have so people can at least, you know,  you know, feel that they they they have achieved, of course, no one can achieve like 100%, right?

So but at least we can say 99 percent or 99.  9%. Right? So, because when I was looking at, you know, the platform, you cover a lot of things. And, you know, like,  as you mentioned, there are different attack vectors. So, so what are like some of the, you know, if you can just on a high level, of course, explain to us, you know, what are some of the techniques that you try to, to um,  You know, embedding in your platform that can help people in reducing the risks of these attacks. 

Yeah, no, this is, uh, this is a great point. I think it comes down to trainings, right? But the problem with fundamental problem with trainings, people hate them. So, so, um, yeah,  I, I think you will, um,  it's just natural, right? People are not fully aware of all the cybersecurity risks. And of course it's all changing dramatically and we need to.

You know, raise this awareness and make sure the message sticks. And, you know, we, we formed this habit, but if the answer is more training, I think it's the wrong answer. I think, uh,  we got to the point where a lot of people, at least I've seen a lot of people are being constantly trained and, uh, constantly  filling out surveys.

Uh, I'm not sure that I, I think this has been almost like the necessary, but the thing that we have to do. Uh, but I wonder if this experience can be gamified. I wonder if the, you know, the scams are, you know, everyone could feel the scam. So I  think, um,  of course you have to have like a system of sorts that gives you understanding, like how many, um. 

How what is the percentage of your workforce? That is no idea. What is the percentage of the workforce? Uh, you know, it's relatively ready for for the threat. So you have to understand this because if you don't measure that, you can't really control it.  And, uh, to that, you need to, to do something, whether it's, um, gamified system, uh, where you try to, it's like a, uh, your own, uh, fake scam attack.

So you know how many of your own employees are biting, uh, scams that, that you actually populate, uh, that's one thing. The other thing is training, or maybe you can try everything under the sun, a little bit of this and that. But, um, one, one thing remains certain is that the better, um, personal security of, uh, your employees and the better awareness of everyone who works for your company is the better your security overall posture as a company.

And how do you achieve that? There is a little bit of an art and science there. And I think a lot of people are trying to make training a little bit more engaging, but fundamentally you absolutely have to do them. So you have to do something to not only raise awareness, but also give people practical understanding of how the, how scams look, what do you have to do?

Like a lot of times you do click the link. So what do you do about that? You have to report, right? You have to tell someone so the rest of the organization is ready and feel prepared. So all of the systems, I think is just a very, very foundational, um, systems that you have to have within the company and, uh, without them.

Yeah. I think no matter how  great your tools are. The workforce and this, uh, lack of understanding how to deal with scams might, uh, might set you up.  

Absolutely. I agree with you on, on that point, because you know, uh, we need, we need to make, you know, these trainings more appealing somehow to people. I believe Yuri.

Uh, because people, they think, Oh yeah, it's, it's just another couple of videos I'm going to, uh, see. And then I will be asked a few questions at the end and, you know, they find it boring. I would not lie. Like even at some stage when I used to work, uh, with like big companies and they used to do this, uh, awareness things.

Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. You know, like we know about this, but, uh, yeah. So, so I think a lot of folks need, need to be done there. On on that part. Now, one question I want to ask you, you know, we live in maybe one of the  best place in the world when it comes to tech adoption, which is like in Dubai and the UAE, right?

So  as as part of what you do, you know, today from from innovation at Aura. Um, how do you see, you know, you know,  What we talked about from AI and, you know, the adoption of every technology which is possible can contribute, you know, to protect us, um, in a fast forward  tech driven city like Dubai, because here, you know, we have a lot of things that goes on, like, you know, so we have  people who are trying to get access to our data.

There is, you know, people who try it. to do financial transactions with our data or personal data. I'm talking. So how, how do you see, you know, the maybe adoption of AI and maybe other technologies  contributing to the safety of the city, which is known for being one of the safest place in the world from, from physical perspective.

So how we can, do you think replicate this from, from cybersecurity perspective in the cyber world? 

No, I think this is an incredible question to bounce with you, Mahmoud. I, I. I, I can absolutely see, uh, Dubai being one of the  ridiculously safe cities, right? It's almost, um, impossible how safe it is here. But if you go back to the virtual, uh, digital space, I don't think.

It is, um,  much of a different from rest of the world. I think it's, you know, uh, similar, I would say Dubai is doing a little bit of, um,  there is absolutely several programs that I think that are being, uh, deployed. So, uh, to content filter, for example, uh, it's very easy to report something as a cyber crime, uh, to Dubai police, which is great, but fundamentally, I think that there.

There is much more that can be done and I, I, I honestly don't think there is such a tremendous lift and, uh, how cool would it be if Dubai was the absolutely safest city from a cyber security perspective? So, not only that you can feel here safe, but if you, if you live here, then,  you know, that your cyber space is.

Way more protected as well. I think this would be  pretty incredible. And I think what's everyone is wrestling around in the world is a couple of things as, um,  who is responsible for the ultimately who's responsible for, uh, consumer protection. Uh, is that, uh, just the company that provides the service, uh, because their response, the responsibility is so diluted,  I think it's difficult for a lot of companies to step up unless something is happening and there is like a really large uncontained problem here, I think taking proactive stance.

And actually doing something proactively, uh, within, uh, first of all, as a government and secondly, as, uh, institutions that are fundamental to providing access to the Internet, like, for example, I'll give you, I'll give you an example.  Actually, let me ask a question. Have you ever received those messages from fake Emirates post?

Oh, always. Okay. So, um,  one thing that can be easily done, like, uh, maybe we could somehow, um, clean, clean them up. Uh,  there are lots of ways to do this. Um, I think one of the ways is, um,  in the U S right now you have to, um, whitelist all the marketing templates.  If you want to use  SMS promotional campaigns, so you literally have to come up with a text that has to be whitelisted.

Otherwise, you will not be able to spread the SMS campaigns. So it's just one way of adopting. Like a policy that will help to  prevent those sort of nonsense, um, the other way is calls. Right? So I'm sure you got any calls as well. Right? Um, is there anything we could do, um,  to, uh, prevent those calls? How, what is, what is the role of the network?

Can network collaborate, uh, with Dubai police? Can we analyze calls? Where, um,  you know, those, those calls where they ask you MRSAD, can that be a trigger for the analysis or,  um, an SMS for, um,  UAE pass? Uh, a lot of times they tell you that, Hey, just tell me the code from UAE pass. Well, you are the network, right?

So, you know, that someone is calling you asking about that. You're on the call and you're also receiving the UAE pass SMS. Can that be a trigger? To start analyzing something. So I think there is lots of things that we could do in addition to just bringing the awareness, uh, and, uh,  saying that it's our individual responsibility,  but I think there is a long way to go and I absolutely think someone has to own this and someone has to drive that.

So there is a lot of things that needs to happen. So, yeah,  it's a great opportunity, but also lots of work ahead. 

It's a lot of work. And honestly, and again, you know, back to previous point, like you mentioned, I, and also I commented on that, they're becoming so sophisticated. So I just, so,  uh, I'm trying to remember what, yeah.

Um, you know, the, the, the CEO, the founder of FIABI, which is, was Sukilman. She, she was talking about something where even now, you know, the caller ID from the landline number can make, they can make it appear like as if it's from the bank, you know, and, and, and, you know, It seems that the person who, who, okay, it's not a mobile number with non caller ID.

So the bank name was there and you know, because when they ask about the PIN or the OTP and you know, I see the banks, I see the government, they keep repeating this again and again. But I think, you know, there's  Security or cyber security, in my opinion, it's also pretty much a psychological factor  because these guys, they know exactly.

And to your point before, when, when you said, when they monitor the emails and the conversation, because they hijacked, you know, the victim email, and then they're trying to reach their connections. So what they do also, they understand pretty much. You know, how our psychology would work. So for example, majority of the time, and this is something I've seen in the B2B space, what they do is if they want to do the attack  by phone or by SMS or by phishing or whatever it is, they do it on a Friday night before the weekend, because everyone is tired.

Everyone wants just to go home. And then they say, Hey, the CEO is stuck in a meeting and he needs this. I'm going to send you now a. a war document, just check and confirm that, you know, the information inside is right. So they just use these very smart tactics. Um, that, but of course the mission is, I think on everyone, it's on the consumer being also like knowing what's happening around, at least, you know,  showing eagerness to learn  professionals.

Like ourselves also to educating and of course the technology and of course we need the law enforcement and we need  as you said, there's a lot of work to do and there's, uh, you know, but the technology at the same time is, is, is promising. Now I want to, to, to, to jump on something else if you don't mind Yuri.

Um,  and you know, like you had this. very successful ventures, right? So what I'm interested to know is, uh, what have you identified as the missing selling point that many tech startups actually overlook?  

No, I, I, you know, I wish, I wish I could tell you there is a secret sauce. And to be honest with you, like I launched, uh, 17 or 18 products.

By now throughout my career since 2009 and to be, to be clear, most of them failed, right? So there's only a few companies that worked out really well. Um, and, uh, even when you have the initial success and you, you're, you have this conviction that you are doing something, right? There is absolutely no guarantee.

Uh, and, uh, sometimes you, um,  Sometimes it's the timing, right? So the market is just not ready for the solution, or maybe it's the other way around, you're too late with the solution. Sometimes it's, um, you ran out of, uh, you ran out of time, so you never, uh, there is a little bit of this unpredictability, but, uh, there are ways absolutely to,  so it's not, not completely random and actually I can see that there are ways that you can do in order to lower the risk, of course.

And it all, to me, it all starts with finding the right problem to tackle, how you define your problem. Uh, what is this, uh, segment of customers that you're trying to help, how you are different, what sort of technology you're using, that,  that is the right beginning. So  you asked about the unique selling point.

I think if you don't understand your market in the beginning and you have, don't have this. Absolutely. Crystal clear domain expertise that you are the number one, you have like a lot of expertise in this domain. So you're adding value. Uh, then it is difficult to come up with a unique selling point. And then once you do you, once you have identified your books of your Amazon, you want to build an Amazon, of course, but you start with books, selling just books, right?

And nothing else. So once you have identified this, uh, segment or audience, then of course, uh, you go very deep. And I think the pockets of those, um, opportunities, if you will, they lay where. It's so difficult for  larger established companies. It's so much work, uh, to sell something new, something that doesn't exist.

Uh, it's just easier to go for, for the existing business. It's there, there's large, large demand there. So in those pockets of opportunities where you have that, you feel that, or you have an insight that someone has this. You know, ridiculous problem, but almost seems to be unsolvable. Uh, and it's just a lot of work in order to create something out of that.

That is the opportunity. And I think that's where entrepreneurs and small teams, they can move really fast. Um, they can disrupt in a way and they can establish themselves through this category. And then how, how do you grow from there is another thing,  but I think this is how it all starts.  

Absolutely. You know, and, uh,  I agree with you.

There's no one. for  sexist and the key is to understand and not only to understand, I believe Yuri also.  This is something I keep repeating. You need to, I mean, for founders, they need to accept at some stage that they need to pivot, you know, like  they're there. And, you know, always I say, remember, you start with a hypothesis, right?

So you're not sure you're going to approve or disprove that what you thought is right. Gonna be right or wrong. So this is ability, you know, and there's no shame, of course, and I Personally, I always talk about my fit my I don't call them failures my my learnings more than I talk about my sexist Uh, because I think this is how you know The entrepreneurship journey all together comes along and you know, i'm i'm happy that you shared that today here with us Yuri, you know now  I want to talk about you know, one aspect and I you know, just I will make it very clear and short.

So  for, from your experience, and maybe it's a generative question, but I like to hear different opinions. So I know that you, you, you bootstrapped, you know, some of the startups you had. So,  because people here, they.  Keep asking me. Can you ask, you know, each founder if they have bootstrapped or they raised some funds?

So what's your take on this Yuri? Like when they should be bootstrapping the business, when they should go and, uh, you know, seek for raising some funds? 

Absolutely. No, of course you. If you can bootstrap your business, bootstrap it all day long. You get more equity  and you can do it more well,  you preserve more control.

So, you know, all of these are great things for, for you as a founder of the business, no one wants to give up. Uh, the control and, you know, to end up with less equity. Um,  now do you need to, uh, fundraise in order to come up with a, with a prototype? And in fact, your hypothesis sometimes in, in several categories, you know, your product, like, I think I heard it somewhere where one of the.

large manufacturers that were saying, do you understand that for us, the MVP  or a concept or a prototype is probably tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars. So not every single business can afford like a small team and MVP. And of course, if you're doing software. Yeah, that's  most likely going to be the way small team is the way to go.

But if you're building something else, that's not necessarily the case. You might be building, um, I don't know, um, an e commerce system or something in the retail store with a digital edge, but then you still need to build the retail component. So it depends on the capital, how capital, um. How much capital do you need to come up with an MVP, which is an absolutely minimum viable proposition of your service or product that should disrupt or win over some segment of the market. 

Um, but also, um, what's your end goal? How do you want, where do you want to go? Do you want to come up with a global company that is massive, absolutely massive and has the scale of the worldwide? operations. If you have the vision and if you understand how to do that, yes, of course, then without fundraising, I don't believe that bootstrapping is the way to go.

Fantastic. 

Fantastic. Uh, as we are close to the end, Yuri, uh, and this is, you know, a question, any final thoughts you want to leave us with, uh, and also where people can find more about 

you?  Sure. I'm happy to stay in touch on the LinkedIn. You can find me there by just Uh, type in my name, Yuri, Y U R I, Dvoinos, D V O I N O S.

My final thoughts. Thank you so much, Mehmet, for this, uh, podcast. This was great. Um, we touched on the cybersecurity and my final thoughts are on this is like, it's getting more crazy and we have to be prepared for more wilder things are coming. I wanted to give everyone who listens to your podcast, just one advice, which I found extremely, um. 

Easy to remember and compelling  whenever you, um, are being contacted by someone digitally and asking to click a link or send the money, just do the 2FA to factor authentication by verifying that you are in fact chatting with this person through other channels. So for example, if someone is sending you a WhatsApp, you wouldn't know that WhatsApp was hacked or something happened, just give it, just give a call.

Uh, and double check. So this thing of double checking that probably is going to prevent 90 percent of scams, at least for right now. So it's an easy thing to follow.  And then for,  uh, for all the founders who are listening and tuning in and entrepreneurs, uh, I have the mantra of never giving up, uh, and having fun along the way and enjoying the process.

Uh,  so yeah, that's my best advice.  

Um, this is very, you know, precious advice, I would say, because also I am on your side, Yuri. I always keep people, tell people, don't give up. If you have the passion, uh, and if you have the will,  maybe you will, you will, you will Do some mistakes, which is fine. If you don't mistake, that means that you're not doing enough.

So a hundred percent. And to the previous point,  uh, you know, I spent literally last year  trying to educate because you know, this starts as they say, so they say education starts at home, so it applies to cyber security and it goes to, to the. You know, if we're not aware about our personal, uh, you know, risks from cybersecurity perspective, and you are because, you know, I have a little bit kind of tendency to be standing on with the startups with the small businesses.

And I keep telling founders and small business owners, please, please, please don't ignore. This aspect. It's very important. You need to start it by your personal devices and your, you know, the hygiene  on whether how you use your,  you know, your accounts, you know, how do you and of course, plus the awareness about the things you just mentioned to double check to do this multi factor checking.

Let's call it an authentication also as well. So this is a very, very valid point.  Yuri, really, I enjoyed the discussion with you today. By the way, the link to your LinkedIn profile will be in the show notes. So thank you very much for being on the show today. I really enjoyed and I am sure that the audience also would enjoy it.

And this is how usually I end my episodes. So this is for the audience. If it's your first time listening to us, thank you very much tuning in. And I wish you liked what we offered for you today. So please, you can subscribe to the podcast. We are available on all the podcasting platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the others.

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So that's it all for today. Thank you. And we will meet again in a new episode.