#354 Leading with Awareness: Thom Dennis Discusses Conscious Leadership

[00:00:00]

Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased joining me, Thom Dennis. Thom, the way I love to do it is I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves, tell us a little bit more about you, you know, what you are currently up to, and then we [00:01:00] can start the discussion from there.

Mehmet: So the floor is yours.

Thom: Thank you, Mehmet. It's, uh, it's good to meet you and, uh, to be with your, your, uh, your audience. Um, so I've been, uh, involved in leadership development for, gosh, it's over 40 years now. Um, I, uh, I was in the, uh, the military, the raw marines for 17 years, and I learned a lot about leadership and ended up, um, being involved in teaching of leadership, which I had never set out to do.

Thom: It wasn't my aspiration, but, uh, you know, it was great. And I learned a great deal. And, uh, when I came outside, I looked for an organization where I could continue what I'd been doing. the, the, the Ron Neville college, which was effectively coaching, although nobody called it that in those days. So, um, I, I, uh, I [00:02:00] started coaching and then I did a master's in that.

Thom: And, um, really the way the masters was, was formed was so that we looked at individuals, we looked at groups and we looked at. Organizational level. And that's the way that I work. I coach a one on one, I develop teams, I facilitate offsites, uh, wherever they are in the world, it's, it's a, it's a great opportunity for me to travel and I have traveled all over the world facilitating, um, important meetings, um, and an organizational level, uh, I help them change their cultures and essentially I've been doing the same work really, um, for the years, um, with various organizations in various countries and I've lived in a number of countries and really enjoyed working with different cultures, understanding the differences and, and what brings us together and what pulls us apart.[00:03:00]

Thom: Uh, and, uh, I'm, I'm speaking a little bit more now about what, what is important to me, because I think the leadership skills that got us to where we are in the world today are not necessarily the ones that they're going to take us forward. So, um, I'm quite passionate about that.

Mehmet: That's cool. You know, I'm looking forward to, to know more about these things you're passionate about, Thom.

Mehmet: So usually what I do, you know, before we come here and we start to record the episode, I go over. You know, whatever information I can get my hands on to prepare and I saw one term which, you know, the name itself attracted me. So I've seen like you have pioneered what's called conscious leadership development.

Mehmet: And, you know, of course, uh, I got it myself, but I think it's something that the audience should be aware of. So if you can explain to us. What do you mean by [00:04:00] conscious leadership? What does it entail? And why do you think it's crucial in today's, especially in the business world?

Thom: Thank you. I think that, um, the way that leaders have performed in the past has been on the whole really quite directive.

Thom: Um, you, you, you create a company or you're leading a company and you have an idea and what you say goes and that's the way it happens. Um, and that is a style of leadership and depending on the, the quality of and the vision of that leader, you can have some, some good results. But the world is becoming ever more complex and, uh, there are so many more pressures on leaders today than there were in the past.

Thom: And so for me, I think what is incredibly important is [00:05:00] for a leader to understand their beliefs, understand their values, understand that these, their, their conditioning, their life's conditioning will drive the way that they, uh, perform and that they. interact with other people. Uh, and, and so I think today things like, uh, relationships are really important.

Thom: They probably always have been, but they've taken on a greater weight now and a sense of responsibility, uh, amongst leaders. for the impact that they have on their people, on the organization, and of course increasingly now their impact on the environment. All of these things are, are, um, dynamics which mean that the leader has got to understand themselves better.

Thom: They've got to understand [00:06:00] what's driving them, understand when they get really upset. What is that? That's making them upset because, you know, people tend to take out upset on the person that's nearest to them. And it's very rarely the appropriate place. Uh, um, and so. Being able to take real responsibility for one's, one's thoughts and one's actions, the way you live out your, your passions and so on, um, is, is, is something that leaders really need to have a, a really good handle on.

Thom: So conscious leadership is that sense of, understanding oneself to the extent that, uh, when you take decisions, uh, you're, you're looking at, you're, you're aware of where that, that decision is coming from much deeper than perhaps, right, let's just do this. Nevermind. Uh, you know, and [00:07:00] I've worked with organizations where I often, um, ask them, you know, when a, a CEO makes a decision, uh, and I say to him or her, Um, what are the unintended con consequences of this?

Thom: Have you thought those through? Uh, and very, very often they don't wanna talk about that because they made the decision and let's get on with it. Sometimes taking a moment or two to reflect actually can, can, can lead to much better decision making. And that's all part of being conscious in the way that we lead.

Mehmet: I, I got it, Thom. So it's like, you know, just, uh. Think about the consequences of the decisions, you know, that these leaders would take. It's about, you know, thinking throughly and deeply about the, you know, how a decision might affect not only the business, sometimes it might affect, you know, also the [00:08:00] lives of the people, you know, whether their income, their economical status and so on.

Mehmet: So yeah, so that's really deep. Now, one thing you, you kept repeating in the introduction and now also, which also like kind of. For me, um, I always talk about, you know, The culture of the company, the culture of the company, the culture of the, of the place, you know, even if they are a non profit organization or profit based organizations, we talk about the culture a lot.

Mehmet: And sometimes we hear the word, okay, you know, we should be doing a pivot. We should do a cultural transformation, right? So when it comes to, to, to Transforming the culture, changing the culture into an organization. What do you think are the most common challenges they face? And, you know, how do you think are the best [00:09:00] ways to overcome these obstacles?

Thom: Hmm. I think that one of the, the initial challenges about doing a culture change is the length of time that it takes. Changing culture, really, you've got to be prepared to be working on it for at least three years. And, uh, in today's business world, honestly, there aren't that many CEOs who last three years.

Thom: So, and that makes it very difficult because. Uh, it means that, um, the leadership that takes the decision to really fundamentally right, we really want to change in a particular way, may not be the leadership that sees that, that journey through, and when a new CEO comes in, they almost always want to make their own mark, and they tend to stop whatever's going on.

Thom: And that's [00:10:00] disastrous. Uh, so, uh, I always, um, it's one of the first things I do when, when a CEO says, I want to change my culture. I say, well, how long are you going to be around for? Because, um, we need that continuity and And and the the the dedication if that person is going to move on that the person who takes over is prepared to work with the work that's being done.

Thom: Otherwise, you you waste an enormous amount of resource. And what's more, you create a lot of cynicism in the organization. If you talk to middle managers in many organizations that they will say, Oh, yeah, yeah, we had a new initiative. But these come down from the C suite pretty regularly. So all we do is, uh, Whenever one comes down, you say, right, keep your head down.

Thom: Um, it'll last about six months and then it'll, it'll, it'll fade away. So if, if you just, uh, keep your head down, [00:11:00] it'll be all right. And actually we won't have to change anything. And, and, and what that highlights is, um, the resistance. The natural human, human resistance to change. Lots of people say, Oh, I love change.

Thom: And I, I, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm all for change. I really enjoy it. I, I, I'm not sure that's always true. It's an easy one to say, just like an awful lot of managers tell you that they're really good listeners when they're not. Um, so, so, uh, I think that, um, uh, yeah. It's really important to think that through. And then in terms of changing a culture, you've got to be willing, um, to, to look at the leadership in the eye and say to them, right, you want to change the culture, the culture is driven from your office.

Thom: So that means the first place we've got to look [00:12:00] in terms of changing the culture is how you are and how you are behaving. Uh, and, and the culture that you are creating by what you're doing. And that can be an uncomfortable conversation. Um, obviously it's a fantastic one. If the, if the, if the CEO has the courage to say, yeah, I get that.

Thom: You know, I'm so passionate about making a success, making the profit, you know, growing, whatever it is, that's, that's brilliant. And being willing to say, okay, I'm not perfect. I'm probably, I'm driving this in a particular way, and I can see that it's not working for everybody. And if it's not working for everybody, the chances are it's affecting my botThom line in some way.

Thom: So if I can get that sorted out, it's going to release us to be even more successful, even better than we are today. And if you have that kind of attitude, that's fantastic. Uh, and then you can do some work. But culture [00:13:00] resides. It's driven from the top uniquely, but it is driven from the top and it pervades everything.

Thom: So we've really got to, I would say when I come in, I like to look under the carpets and behind the wallpaper, uh, and see where these things are really engrained. And what is the, um, what's, what's the benefit to people to keep it the way it is so that we can start to work with that and bring about something that's more positive.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Makes a lot of sense to me. Now, continuing a little bit into the same, space of, you know, changing culture and strategies. And I know like, Thom, you, you work yourself in, in different sectors, like energy, banking, and, and so on, [00:14:00] and technology. So how does that change from sector to sector? Like, does it really matter which sector they are in?

Mehmet: And, you know, and it's like kind of a two questions or loaded question, uh, as well, and in some situations. So there's the sector part, and the other one is maybe this company, they have multiple regional coverages and for example, maybe they are a US based company, but they have operations center in, in, in Europe and in in Asia and Middle East.

Mehmet: So how, you know, these cultural nuances like you, you think the leaders should be aware about when they decide to do that?

Mehmet: Ah, well,

Thom: I think from a sector point of view.

Thom: There is a certain difference. I, you know, I think, um, age of [00:15:00] an organization can affect the culture probably more than the sector. Um, but I think in some, some, look, take, take oil and gas or energy. Um, the, the, these are organizations where safety is absolutely fundamental. Uh, and over the years, they've learned that in order to have, for instance, a safe oil rig, um, you know, I worked in refineries, I worked, um, with, with oil drilling companies and, and, and, and, The, the, the, the culture of, I mean, I never, I never forget getting into a minibus.

Thom: We we'd been, uh, I'd been running an offsite all day and, um, the, the, the leadership team, we got into a minibus together and, um, [00:16:00] the, the lead who was the CFO actually, uh, got into the, the, uh, the seat next to the driver. And the driver was about to drive away and the CFO has stopped and he turned around to everybody and said, has everybody got their seatbelt on now?

Thom: That was so deeply ingrained in the, in the, in the culture. It's like, you're not, you're not allowed to walk down the stairs, uh, unless you've got a hand on. on, on the, um, the, the, uh, the, that, the, the hand, uh, rail, um, things like that, which in, in most organizations, well, no, for goodness sake, we're all grownups.

Thom: We, um, but that's because safety isn't so ingrained. So in some, in some ways, um, yeah, that there are differences. And of course, the speed that people work at in, in some, um, uh, sectors is a lot faster. [00:17:00] Um, and I suppose, you know, I've, I've worked a lot in the pharmaceutical world and there, uh, one of the things that I, I, I really noticed is when you bring different people from different, from different, uh, disciplines.

Thom: You know, you bring a statistician and a pharmacist and a doctor and a marketing person together in a room, uh, and they have to create something that's really positive and it's really going to work. A lot of organizations, they're more siloed. And so you don't get that cross functional need to be really effective and efficient.

Thom: So I think one does come across differences, um, across across different organizations. But at the end of the day, we're dealing with human beings. Um, and from that point of view, it's completely the same. But I think where you've got tech or you've got engineers or you've got accountants, um, all of these tend to be sort of more left brain, more logical thinking people, as opposed to when you're in a, um, a, [00:18:00] a, uh, a business that's sort of a music business or another business where there's creativity.

Thom: I'm fashion. For instance, I've worked with some, some, um, fashion houses there. The atmosphere is very, very different. Um, yeah, it's great. I should, I love the way things are, are different in that sense. Um, I, I forgotten you, you, you asked me a second part of that question.

Mehmet: Yeah. So it was about, you know, the different regions, different cultures.

Mehmet: Yes. Different regions. Well, of course

Thom: that that is important. Um, and, uh, I think that, uh, uh, if, if you have a French company that takes over a British business, an English business, which there's, there's quite a few examples of that. And they send somebody from France who's never worked outside France. [00:19:00] Uh, that person's going to have a bit of difficulty, um, dealing with an English workforce.

Thom: Um, I've worked with, um, a Japanese robotics company that set up a, uh, a site in the UK. Uh, and you know, the Japanese way of doing things, the mindset, applying that to, uh, English engineers, that caused some problems. Uh, and I think sometimes the US, the Americans, when they. come over to Europe or actually anywhere outside of the US, depending on their experience, can often think that the way things are done at home is the way that things should be done everywhere else.

Thom: And, and, uh, uh, I remember facilitating a, an offsite in, um, Kuala Lumpur, and there were 32 different nationalities in the room. And that was such a huge sort of demonstrator to [00:20:00] me of, of how different people, Uh, will approach a problem differently and they will, uh, um, react to other people in, in the room very differently.

Thom: Um, this is why, uh, I'm, I've, uh, done quite a lot of work with the Cultural Intelligence Center, um, which is an American organization. And one of the, the things that we do there is take people through a development program where they explore themselves and how they interact. With difference, you know, we have so many international companies today.

Thom: It's really important that, um, people appreciate difference and it's quite important. I just have sort of pigeonholed France, England, America, a little bit in what I said, but One has to be careful of that because, um, we are, as I said, human beings first, and then we have the culture [00:21:00] that we were brought up in, and then we have our experience and our conditioning since then.

Thom: One of, one of the, the best coaching relationships I've ever had was with a, um, a French, uh, biologist. Who had spent time in the UK and America, uh, as well as his, his basic upbringing in France and that internalization of him made him so much more flexible, uh, and adaptable in different environments, as opposed to someone who's just spent all his time in one culture.

Thom: And hasn't experienced others. I think it's so, so important that people really explore themselves and how they react and respond to, to all the different things. You know, how am I with people with disabilities? How am I with somebody who doesn't look like me? How am I with somebody who, whose language [00:22:00] is not.

Thom: Whose first language is not my first language all of these things, uh that there is a process There's a training that you can do which actually can really develop people's ability Uh and success in relating with with different people And that's important.

Mehmet: It is indeed. It is indeed Thom and yeah to your point like i've seen like companies uh You know, they think that we always done it this way.

Mehmet: I mean, in their culture or like in their geographies, and then they struggle when they go out and find this, and they have their cultural shock themselves. Oh, we didn't know that you do it this way, right? So, but what you just mentioned, that makes a lot of sense if they can have such trainings and, you know, get the proper, uh, I would say guidance.

Mehmet: On on how to deal with with such situations. Now, one thing this little little bit to not only cultural shifts, actually, and I'm sure like leaders usually they have [00:23:00] to do it maybe on daily basis, and maybe they themselves they find they found themselves inside that, which is You know, conflict resolution, right?

Mehmet: So one of the things, whether you have a small business, big business, doesn't matter. You are a startup or an established company. So conflicts will, will, will, will happen. And I know like, this is one of the things that also you focus on in your work, uh, Thom. So I know we can go a lot here, but you know, what are like some of the techniques that you find most effective when, you know, you have these, uh, high stakes situations, you know, because it's like a significant conflict.

Mehmet: Maybe it's affecting big projects, big decision, maybe between the founder and the investor between, you know, different people.

Thom: Yeah. It's, uh, I remember, I remember going to Cameroon once and, um, there was an oil rig in refit and there were three [00:24:00] teams involved. Um, there was the, dockyard team, there was the project team, and there was the rig team. And each of them had their own agenda. And each of them were doing their own thing, you know, with the best intentions, of course, these things always come from the best intentions.

Thom: Well, normally, but it was a disaster. And it was costing I mean, literally millions of dollars, uh, extra over and above what the project had been projected to, uh, to cost. Um, and so I had to sit down with them all and, and, uh, actually I had a, another example of that a few years before that, where, um, you may remember there was a fire in the, um, in the tunnel.

Thom: the, the, uh, under the, um, the English channel between [00:25:00] England and France, there was a huge fire and they had to get that cleared fast because no trains were getting through and it was costing them an absolute fortune every, every hour that the trains weren't running. And, um, Somebody said, right, let's get this refurbishment team.

Thom: And when I suppose we better have some French and some English people involved in this, because, uh, you know, it's the entendre cordial and, uh, and, uh, getting the work together, you know, the French were ostensibly in the lead and, uh, They didn't speak English and the English people had their own opinions and they didn't speak French and they were supposed to be getting on and under huge pressure to get this, this job done in the, in the, in the shortest amount of time.

Thom: So. It happened that I spoke both languages. So I got these people in a room. I mean, that's the first thing. Let's get people in the room. [00:26:00] And then the next thing is getting to listen to each other. I think when people get very upset, they're much more interested in somebody else hearing them as opposed to them hearing someone else.

Thom: So creating a space Which, which, um, fosters listening and also, um, uh, establishing a common objective where everybody can say, yeah, that's, that's where we're going. If we can get that common ground, uh, and then start listening to each other. So often people say, Oh God, I didn't really, yeah, yeah, you know, I, I can see where you're coming from.

Thom: Now you get, you get that sort of opening of. of, of conversation. And from that you can build, um, but you have to, you have to establish, um, safety and a common objective. Um, and, [00:27:00] and, and, and, and then this, this, this willingness to, um, listen, uh, and then, then you can work from there. So it's open communication.

Thom: You mean

Mehmet: to have the communication open. Uh, try to understand the other side, how they are, you know, as you said, like where they are coming from, what's their point of view, and then, you know, things, things can get better. Now, you mentioned a couple of times about, you know, the offside, and I believe you, you're referring to some of these like executive retreats, right?

Mehmet: So, uh, So what makes, you know, strategic planning retreat or transformational development workshop in European, because I know like also you organize that a lot, because, you know, I've, I've interviewed once, um, you know, someone was, saying like this should be planned in a way. And another time I spoke to someone else, he was telling me it should be designed in this way.

Mehmet: So a [00:28:00] lot of, of thoughts about what's the best way to have a strategic planning retreat or what I sometimes call a transformational development workshop. So how, what's the best way to, to plan these events and what outcomes you, you believe, you know, the executive should expect from these.

Thom: That's a great question.

Thom: It's a big question there. Um, there are different ways. Uh, I've just been talking to an organization. Um, and you know, they're looking for a facilitator for a two day event in July. Uh, and he said, well, how would you do this? Uh, and the first thing I had was a whole bunch of questions for him. Cause actually it's the preparation of these things, which is, which is, which is absolutely key fundamental.

Thom: Um, so the first thing for me is to understand who's meeting this is and. Uh, it might be the CEO. It might be a CFO, you know, a large [00:29:00] organization, um, or a departmental head, whatever, but typically let's take a CEO. Um, what, what I'm interested in is what that person wants to get out of this, this meeting.

Thom: Uh, and they, may have some ideas and they may actually not be quite as sure as they think they are. So that's something that I, I really like to work through with them. When you walk out of here at the end of whatever it is, two days, three days, four days, um, what do you want to have changed? What, um, what do you want to have learned?

Thom: Would you want to have communicated? Would you want to have decided? Um, you know, it might be a setting a new vision for the organization. It might be Defining the purpose. It might be just saying, right, what's this year's strategy? Or it could be just a group of people all reporting in together and and learning where they each are in, in, um, [00:30:00] in their, in their, their, their, their sales process or whatever.

Thom: I mean, there can be many, many reasons to bring people together, but let's establish the objectives first off. Uh, and What I tend to do then is to, well, I do two things. One, I want to know what's, what's, what can't be discussed because quite often there are, um, issues which are going on, but the, the, the, the, the, the CEO doesn't want that particular thing to be addressed because it's, it's a sideline from where he or she is really wanting to stay focused.

Thom: Now I may challenge that because the dynamic of how strong. Other side is may, um, really negatively affect things. Um, but we, we agree on that. Um, and then I, I need to understand who's going to be in the meeting because I want to [00:31:00] understand what they're bringing in because all of them tend to have their own aspirations and their own agendas.

Thom: So I like to speak to, um, If it's a if it's a C suite team, for instance, I'll speak to them all. If it's a larger meeting, 20 or 30 people, then I'll just find out who the key people are. And if they come from different parts of the world, it's quite useful to speak to them so that I can get a sense of the The, um, the different dynamics come from, from different parts of the world.

Thom: And what I'm looking for is, as I say, the, the unspoken, I like to understand what the elephants are in the room before I go into the room. Um, and, uh, ideally I would have discussed those with the, the, the, the CEO so that we can agree, uh, how important these things are and where they fit into the whole agenda.

Thom: So I then plot out an agenda, uh, [00:32:00] and, um, uh, Normally, these things are residential, they're much more powerful, much better when they are, of course, it's more expensive. But so often, the real key communications actually take place in the bar or a dinner in the evening. And I like to facilitate those. So I'm not facilitating just the meeting in the meeting room.

Thom: I'm facilitating the whole journey from when people, um, well, when we start talking about the event through to their arrival and their experience. Uh, in in the in the venue, and I'm really I get quite involved in how the venue is set up and the shape of the room and all those dynamics are really important.

Thom: And then, uh, how do we disperse? And what are the commitments after that? Because very [00:33:00] often an organization will say, Yeah, we want our Um, offsite. And I say, right, where's the follow up? Because you're going to come out of this, your tails are going to be up, you're going to be really upbeat and happy and motivated.

Thom: But then people are going to get back to their office and there'll be this mound of work they've got to do because they've been away. And a lot of that good feeling dissipates very quickly. And if people have made undertakings to do certain things after the meeting, How do we make sure that they are supported in order to do that?

Thom: Um, it's not about cracking a whip necessarily. It's about, um, just it's, it's the reality of, of, of how things are. So how can we make the best, um, out of, How can we make sure that people have ownership, responsibility, accountability, uh, and then we need to have a follow up meeting, uh, which might be three months later, six [00:34:00] months or whatever.

Thom: But it's a journey. It's not just a one off.

Mehmet: Absolutely. And, uh, you know, one of the feedbacks I always hear, yeah, we did this meeting. Yeah. Big talks, big promises, but nothing happened later. And the main reason was. Maybe the goal was so ambitious, like no one could actually do it. Or to your point also, as well, there was no proper follow up after that meeting.

Mehmet: So a hundred percent, you know, I've, I've, I've witnessed it myself also, uh, from this perspective. Now, I like to talk about trends, Thom, usually, and, but this time we're not talking about like, uh, technology trends. We're talking about, uh, societal trends, right? So, so what are you seeing, you know, happening?

Mehmet: outside that companies and of course the leaders of these companies need to take care of so they can stay ahead. And, you know, adapt their [00:35:00] leadership and cultural strategies accordingly to these trends.

Thom: Yeah, there's, uh, there's, there's a lot going on in the world. Um, as I've said, the, the, the pressures on leaders today are so much greater.

Thom: Well, is that true? Um, I think people might argue with me on that. I think it is true, but certainly the breadth of pressures, the things, the number of different things that, um, leaders have to deal with today is much greater than it used to be. And those, as you've said, tend to be coming from society. Uh, for me.

Thom: Organizations, uh, used to kind of define how society saw things. Today, it's, it's, it's the other way around. Society is now defining how organizations have to, uh, [00:36:00] respond, uh, and how they have to, to, to run their businesses. Uh, and a lot of, um, leaders are truly resistant. And I can understand why, but, uh, there are these other pressures.

Thom: So you, you know, men, um, mental health, physical wellbeing, the incorporation of people with disabilities, not just visible disabilities, but neuro disabilities and, um, uh, or. Um, the variety of, uh, neural sort of, uh, um, setups that people have, I'm losing the word, um, in, in the old days, You just didn't have to worry about all this stuff.

Thom: But now, uh, and actually [00:37:00] the pandemic has really accentuated a lot of this because a lot of people said, you know, during the pandemic, I worked, I realized I'd been working in a particular way for years. And I don't want to do it anymore. I don't like it. I want to have some sort of say in, in the way that I work in my work environment, all that kind of thing.

Thom: Um, and so there, there has been this push. Uh, and of course there's all the conversations generally about DEI diversity, equity, and inclusion. And some people have put a B on the end belonging, um, uh, uh, all the, um, gender, um, identities that. people are revealing. I'm not so sure it's that there, there's a big change in the number of people who have, um, gender differences or perceptions.

Thom: It's just that it's much more out in the [00:38:00] open now. And of course, in different countries. Some things are still illegal and in other countries, uh, they're really being pushed. So for an international company, this can be a big, big challenge. Um, and, and, uh, so again, these are, uh, I mean, I remember many years ago, um, coaching, uh, a CEO, um, of an engineering company.

Thom: And, um, this, this person knocked on the door and came in and sort of gave the, the managing director a piece of paper and then walked out and, and he explained after this, this person who, I mean, was clearly a woman, but was dressed more as a man.

Thom: he explained that, um, from the following Monday, um, I can't remember the names, but essentially she, she had said, I wish to be [00:39:00] addressed as a man, not a woman. Um, and, uh, so this, this, this, um, this managing director had never come across anything like this before. And so we had a good conversation about, well, how do you deal with that?

Thom: And how accepting are we? Because he really wanted to be accepting of this change. Um, but How could he, um, how could he deal with that? And, and how could he sort of manage all the different reactions that would come from all the different people, uh, in, in, in, in, in the, it was, it was a factory. Um, so, uh, It's tricky.

Thom: It's tricky to deal with that. And if you, you can't just brush it under the carpet, you can't just say, or it doesn't exist. Um, human beings are, you know, we're all different and thank God we are. Um, but how do we create the space [00:40:00] for difference? And I think that in a, in a, in a nutshell is one of the real challenges of, of leaders today.

Thom: How do we deal with difference?

Mehmet: Absolutely, Thom. Like, and I think this is top of mind because to your point, uh, maybe I'm repeating some of the things you mentioned and you know, but I need, I need to, to, to highly agree with you, especially on the point when you mentioned the pandemic, it changed the way people look at how they do things because you know, they took some, while a lot of people see it negative and you know, lockdowns, of course, no one can, can disagree with this, but what happened, it also gave people.

Mehmet: Moment of reflection on the way They do work and I agree highly with you that, you know, there was this moment of reflection. Hey, one second, why I'm doing this? It can be done in different ways. So, uh, and of course, like this is a continuous challenge. Now, as you always come to an end, and I want to hear from you, Thom, [00:41:00] because as I was telling you, before we started, we focused a little bit on first time for on founders of startups, but they need the leadership and they need the support.

Mehmet: Of course, you know, to deal with all this. So if you want to leave us today with words of wisdom for these people who are becoming leaders today, they are leading, yeah, a startup, but maybe in a couple of years, they will become a big company. Maybe they will become a unicorn. Who knows? So leave us with these.

Mehmet: You know, final advice from your side for these future leaders.

Thom: Thank you. As you were speaking, I realized that, um, you know, I talked about all the pressures, um, on, on, um, leaders and I, I mean, there are some others. AI is one. Um, which is an amazing challenge, um, which I think probably a lot of your listeners are very involved in, uh, the good and the bad on that.

Thom: Um, and of course, uh, climate change [00:42:00] is creating all sorts of movement of people. And, uh, it's, it's ironic, I think that in, in society, there's this, this big change, this push for separation. Um, you know, the, the Scottish want to be independent. They are, the Welsh want to be independent. Um, uh, there's, there's, there's, the Americans don't want to talk to anybody else, particularly if, if, if, if Donald Trump is in charge and so on.

Thom: And yet at the same time, what actually we need are people coming together. We need community. We need the strength of difference coming together. So I just highlight that. Um, and in terms of in terms of answering your question, um, I think that particularly in the tech world, things move so fast. You've got really bright people who think incredibly fast, [00:43:00] uh, and they're always looking for the next thing, you know, let's go, let's move, let's move.

Thom: And, you know, they're working incredibly long hours. They're really passionate. And I think sometimes we lose sight of where we're going and. You know, my, my organization is called serenity and leadership. It's not for, for, it's not by mistake that I think sometimes we do actually have to give the space to breathe and reflect.

Thom: And in terms of people coming together, you know, if, if somebody comes into your office and they, they have a problem or they want to discuss something, are you able to switch off the screen? to push the keyboard away from you, uh, have a clear space on your desk and look across from that to that person and say, uh, I'm here [00:44:00] and I'm with you.

Thom: And I, I really, what I'm saying is the greatest gift that one human being can give to another is their full presence.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thom. Um, Now, this is actually, this is my final question. Where can we get in touch with you, Thom? Like where, where we can find more about you and about your company?

Thom: Um, thank you very much. Yes. Um, the company is Serenity in Leadership. So it's serenityinleadership. com. Uh, my name is Thom, T H O M. So Thom at Serenity in Leadership. We have a YouTube channel. So if you look up Serenity and Leadership, you'll find it. We've got some amazing material there of, of all sorts of the different aspects of what I've been speaking about and some others.[00:45:00]

Thom: Um, and, uh, look me up on LinkedIn. Uh, I'd love to hear from people. I'd love to hear people's reactions to what. Um, you know, I've been saying I don't claim to be right. Um, I just, what I say, I believe in. And, uh, I'd love to hear, uh, people's experiences that match those and are very different because I'm definitely one who wants to learn every day.

Thom: Absolutely.

Mehmet: For the audience, you don't have to worry. All the links. That just don't mention they will be in the show notes so you don't have to look it up yourself I will make your life easy again Thom. Thank you very much for your time today I really appreciate it and all the insights, you know Especially the final few words from you like these are words really of wisdom for me And I hope it's the same for the for the rest of the audience And this is what this podcast is all about.

Mehmet: Yeah, we are a kind of a tech startup entrepreneurship, uh, podcast. That's true. But also we [00:46:00] want to have the impact, the positive impact. And this is why, you know, um, the discussion today was all about this, how to make the impact. Leaders better. So if we have better leaders, we have better outcomes and better outcome for everyone.

Mehmet: So again, thank you, Thom. And this is how usually I end my episodes. This is for the audience. If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by. I really appreciate that. If you do so, if you did, so please don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your friend and colleagues.

Mehmet: And if you are one of the people who keeps coming, sending me their suggestions, comments, and so on. Thank you for doing so. Please keep doing that and keep sending me your suggestions. Whether I'm doing something good or bad, I would love to hear it. And as I say always, thank you very much for tuning in.

Mehmet: We'll meet again very soon. Thank you. Bye

bye.