#356 Building a Better Future: Jafar Shunnar’s Mission to Support MENA Youth

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased joining me from Palestine, Jafar. Jafar, thank you very much for joining me today. The way I love to do it, I keep it to my guests, uh, to introduce themselves. I know like today [00:01:00] we're going to talk about something which is, uh, you know, close to my heart.

Mehmet: We're going to talk education and, and careers for the new generation, but I will pass it to you now so you can tell us a little bit about you and your journey.

Jafar: Thank you. Thank you, Mohammed. It's a pleasure to be with you today. Um, yeah, my name is Jafar Shunnar. I'm from Nablus, Palestine. And, um, what I do right now is I am the co founder of TAP, which is a career acceleration platform that helps the high potential people in Palestine and Jordan to, uh, to start remote careers at global startups.

Jafar: So that's, uh, in a nutshell, uh, what we do.

Mehmet: Great. Thank you again for, uh, being with me here today, Jafar. And, uh, a question that always, I love to ask, uh, my guests, especially if they are co founders, whether on the technical side or on the business side is I'm sure you have seen, you know, some gap. Um, to to to [00:02:00] start up and co found TAP.

Mehmet: If you can share the story behind, you know, TAP and what have inspired you and other co founders to have this platform like focusing on bridging the job gap for for the youth in in in the region? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jafar: Yeah, we actually see a gap from both sides. Uh, from the talent side, we we see that there is A lot of people with high potential that have a lot to offer to the world.

Jafar: Um, but you know, because they are, they live in Palestine, for example, they are deprived from opportunities. Um, and they end up just, you know, doing any kind of work, you know, um, you know, some people, um, you know, would have college degrees, but they, you know, work as a sales cleric or, you know, any, any type of job that they can do much more, they can offer much more.

Jafar: So that's one side. On the other side, we also see companies, um, always struggling with [00:03:00] hiring. I mean, hiring has been, uh, has always been an issue for companies. And, um, diversity also is a big factor, right? So they want high quality talent that is diverse, that also is cost effective. And we thought, okay, we have this talent pool in Palestine.

Jafar: We have these companies that are looking to hire talent. That is similar to those characters. Characteristics in Palestine. Why don't we do something to bridge that gap and to, um, help the talent and help the companies at the same time? Um, our approach is we're not. We're not a recruitment agency, so we don't just do matchmaking.

Jafar: We mainly work with talent to make them ready for the international job. And we also work with companies to introduce. So it's not just a matchmaking, but there's there's quite some work that we do on the talent side to make them, you know, ready for the international job. So we work on the [00:04:00] readiness of the talent, and we also connect them with

Mehmet: great.

Mehmet: And, you know, I love like such an issue of Jafar. And because, of course, Palestine, Jordan, and, you know, I think all our area here, all the mean a region, I can say to Uh, we see we see we see this, uh, need for such platforms and definitely, you know, and as I told you, I'm passionate about anything related to education and spreading knowledge.

Mehmet: So from so that's a wonderful story. And, you know, uh, indeed, there is a gap in them, you know, in the job market, I would say between these two stakeholders, which is the talents and the companies. But you must have, you know, now seen some major ones, I would say, uh, that, you know, these educated youth. in the area that you covered [00:05:00] today face when they seek job because and everyone knows, you know, especially in Palestine, in Jordan, in Lebanon, you know, even in the GCC countries.

Mehmet: So the youth, they are very hungry for learning. But what do you think, you know, the main issue they face when they try by themselves to go out to the world and start to find, find a job?

Jafar: Yeah, it's a great question, Muhammad. The thing is looking at, you know, the many youth that we have spoken to over the past few years.

Jafar: Um, what happens most of the time is that they go to college. In many cases, uh, college is about just education so that they give them subjects, um, that, uh, in many cases would not be connected to the outside world or to the, to the, to the, uh, to the job market. Um, so college is basically just like you go and take courses and then you're, you're on your own afterwards.

Jafar: So they [00:06:00] graduate, they get their degrees and then they are on this lonely path to find. The job they they're just on their own. Um, no one is supporting them. No one is. I mean, even even mental support is critical. You know, when you are just fighting the world on your own. So what we try to do in top is that we are a pathway.

Jafar: We form a pathway from college to the job market, and we make it a very structured journey where, you know, you join in. Um, you, uh, you, we work on your personal skills, meaning your communication, your, your employability in general. Uh, and we also, uh, work on enhancing your technical skills. And with that, you know, you kind of get a structure, you get a, I don't want to, I don't want to make it like, um, it's like, you know, it's like a recipe that you take, but, but it's, it's almost something like that.

Jafar: [00:07:00] So you go and you do certain steps Um, with our support, you know, of course with, with our ecosystem that we built, uh, uh, around the, the talent type that we know. So, um, you know, we, we, we, we connect you with mentors, we connect you with career coaches, we connect you with, um, um, employability coaches. Um, we help, we help you.

Jafar: Um. learn how to pass interviews, how to network with people, um, how to, you know, impress people when you speak and so on. And then that, um, that journey, um, increases the likelihood of you getting a job significantly. Um, and at the end, what's even good, what's even better about what's even, what's even good about this is at the end, we also connect you with companies that would be willing to hire.

Jafar: So we also build that side of the business and we, you know, we, we build a pipeline of companies that. would be interested in speaking with our graduates. And, [00:08:00] you know, when you combine all of this, you know, you get a really nice offering that, you know, any, any person, um, in the region would want to take, you know, because it makes their, their life much easier.

Mehmet: This is this is really great. This is really good. And to your point, like, uh, people, especially, I mean, anywhere in the world, but especially again in our area here. Uh, I know it from my own experience, right? Because, um, when we choose, To study something a specific major, right? So we have some expectations on our own.

Mehmet: And then when we go out to the market, like you live the shock of your life, right? So, so this is something I heard. I know I lived it and I heard from, from a lot of, of graduates also as well. So this is fantastic now for you, Jafar, because you come from like technical background as well. So first I would ask you, We are living in [00:09:00] a time where, you know, the demand of the skills, you know, in the market, everywhere across the board is changing very, very fast, right?

Mehmet: So how, especially in technology, when it comes to tech, so like, what strategies usually do you use? So to make sure that, okay, like we are now empowering. These graduates or fresh graduate with the skill that gotta be useful. Let's say after I don't know, like one year, two years, three years and how your technical background also help in in in selecting these skills that you think it will be high demand.

Jafar: Uh, so it's a great question actually. Hamad, um, the technology advance advances will always be there. Uh, you know, we see now AI has, has, uh, has and will transform, uh, our lives and our career. Uh, you know, before that, we've got the internet and many things along the way. So the idea is [00:10:00] that we, we need to teach ourselves and we need to teach our participants in the program that they need to embrace those technological advances, that that's, As simple as this.

Jafar: They need to embrace it. They need to know that these are coming and, um, just be ready. You know, when, when there is a new wave, you need to readjust your skills. You know, you need to turn new stuff, uh, uh, to, to be able to stay relevant. And that's, that's, what's most important. Um, always being able to transform yourself, yourself to, to, um, to match what's happening and to be part of the revolution that is happening.

Jafar: Now we see AI. You know, we see that, uh, you know, everybody should be adopting AI and should be, you know, um, proficient with using AI maybe in two years or five years, something new will come. The goal is that to to, to embrace and to be in peace with the fact that there will be a disruption and you just need to be part of the [00:11:00] disruption.

Jafar: You cannot just stay old school and just, uh, it doesn't work. You know, you will be, you will be obsolete, uh, quite quickly.

Mehmet: I got you. You know, like I remember a couple of years back, uh, I was working with one company and, you know, they brought this fantastic trainer and he was mentioning to us that, you know, the, I can't remember the exact code, but you know, the best skill you can learn in this time, especially with the fast technology, technology advancement is to, you know, Learn, unlearn and relearn something like this.

Mehmet: I remember this very, very well. Like, you know, you need, you need to, to be able to, uh, be fast enough to accept that, yeah, yeah, this technology was good. Let's say five or what technology or scale five, six years ago. That's perfect. But it's not fitting, you know, these days. And I always like give the example of, for example, you remember Java, maybe I know like I'm older than you, [00:12:00] but you know, Flash, you know, and designing Adobe Flash things was, was the main and everyone was going like there.

Mehmet: And then all of a sudden JavaScript came and, you know, like it disrupted and barely you start to see Flash. Of course, the people who refuse to unlearn and relearn, they paid that and then they were pushing, pushing, pushing. So this is also an advice from my side. I give also the youth is, accept that nowadays the technology or a skill mainly I'm talking about technical skills more than soft skills soft skills can stay but but it can change overnight like you and don't defend much if you see like okay it's it's something that's continuing to take traction don't fight back against it because you will be the the loser and thank you for mentioning this so now what I wonder and you know again I'm highlighting how much I'm passionate about anything education and, you know, the marriage with education and tech.

Mehmet: So if we think about, uh, your company, Jafar, you, you offer [00:13:00] like an education technology in a sense that, you know, probably, you know, Um, the youth and anyone who participated with you from, from the talent perspective, they can learn, they can have their courses, right? Correct me. So if you can explain the tech part within TAP, uh, from, from the talent perspective and also like, what do you use?

Mehmet: I mean, do you use any technology to match them later with, with the proper companies?

Jafar: Yeah. So, um, We started TAP actually, um, as a pilot, we didn't know that it's going to work, you know, to give you more background before, before me and my co founder, Chris, where we're running an it outsourcing company to become, you know, plain vanilla vanilla it outsourcing.

Jafar: And then this, this idea popped up that, hey, instead of employing the people. And then, um, putting them on our own projects, we might as well just empower them and put them in other companies directly. So it was all, it was an experiment. We weren't, we weren't sure that it will [00:14:00] work. Um, and then, uh, when we tried it, we saw that, hey, there is, it actually could work.

Jafar: And, um, We started initially with a software development program. So, um, you know, helping people become software developers. And then we added two new programs, digital marketing and business development. And initially we just wanted to, um, we just wanted to see that it will work. And, uh, our our way of training is, um, it's quite traditional, actually.

Jafar: So you go, There is a trainer. It's all online. Of course, there's a trainer. There's a cohort. There is, um, there's a curriculum. Um, and, and, you know, after you finish the training and you, you know, you, we mark you as ready for job, then our business development team, um, was also, you know, who's, who's working on partnerships on sourcing deals matches you with, with the right opportunity for you.

Jafar: So this was, this was, um, [00:15:00] Then this was how we used to function up until early this year when we decided that we need to be more tech enabled and we need to be more scalable. And right now we are actually investing in a transforming tab from, you know, a typical bootcamp, uh, style, uh, company to a tech enabled startup.

Jafar: And we are now building tools actually. So TAP will soon become a platform, SaaS platform that, uh, job seekers can use. to, um, to, to, to, to do a job, to do their job hunting more effectively. Uh, think about, think of it as the, your job hunting co pilot. Um, and we can talk, talk more about this. Uh, but you know, uh, people, people, people, people typically underestimate how, uh, the job hunting.

Jafar: Um, process, uh, is, you know, [00:16:00] draining and is, you know, is tiring. Uh, they think that all they need to do is just go and apply to jobs on LinkedIn. You know, we think of, of that as something different and, um, we're building a platform to kind of expose our philosophy of how job hunting should do and to support.

Jafar: job hunters and doing it effectively.

Mehmet: That's, that's great, Jafar. And you touched base on something, you know, I'm curious to know, of course I know the answer, but this is for the audience and maybe for the youth that will be listening and watching us probably. Um, so, so the education part, I got it. Like you you're making it like more a proper.

Mehmet: education tech platform, uh, which is very straight forward. I mean, from, from a, um, technology perspective, but I think, I mean, the audience will get it now you came to the job hunting part and people think it's only in our region and I tell them, no, it's not only our region, actually job [00:17:00] hunting is the most difficult thing.

Mehmet: Anyone, any geography on this planet, you can go over it because And let me put this straight. I know like I might have some people who would criticize this. I would not say 100%, but I would say 99 percent of the time, you know, just dropping your resume or CV, whatever you call it, throw a link it in. Or even if you still go to the traditional web career page of a company, you know, you'll, you'll just drop it.

Mehmet: It's like a lottery, right? So it's just like you get a lottery, um, chance to, to, to see, you know, uh, and I hear complaints. The other day I was speaking with someone and he was telling me, you know, like I get depressed. I want to, for example, he was telling me, I want to apply to a job and, you know, LinkedIn, they show you how many people they have applied already.

Mehmet: And he said, you know, sometimes I just see the [00:18:00] number and I walk away from, from this opportunity. And of course, I told him what they should do, but I want to hear from you, Jafar, like, how you're planning or you, you are thinking about disrupting this, uh, this specific task.

Jafar: Yeah, absolutely. You're totally right.

Jafar: Uh, if there is a job on LinkedIn and, um, you know, thousands of people will see it, you know, hundreds of people will apply. What's your chance of sending out, you know, what's your chance of, uh, uh, being, um, looked at. I mean, we know that hiring managers spend On average 30 seconds or maximum one minute to review a job application.

Jafar: So how are they going to evaluate your CV? How are they going to, um, you know, look at your couple it's, it's going to be like super, super, super quick. And most, most of the time AI will actually look at your CV and most likely, um, you know, take a decision on behalf of the hiring manager. So if you get [00:19:00] into that game of just applying to jobs, your chance is very slim.

Jafar: Now, the way we see it. is, uh, you should seek a, uh, a setup where you are, um, almost, um, zero competition, almost zero competition. Um, what does that mean? It means that when companies, um, have this role, they think of you immediately, or they think of you maybe, and three other people, not, not more than that, not hundreds for sure.

Jafar: And how you can achieve that is that if you, Um, if you network with companies, if you build relationships with companies that, um, might, they might not materialize, you know, uh, tomorrow, but they might materialize in three months. Um, and that's the, that's the approach that we, we try to, to change the mindset of people around.

Jafar: So instead of going and competing with [00:20:00] on the jobs that are open, go out there. Find the right people on LinkedIn that are relevant to you, that are relevant to the industry that you want to work at. Maybe who have some similarities between you and them. Maybe they are Palestinians at your dream company, for example, if you're a Palestinian.

Jafar: Or maybe you both studied at the same school. I'm just giving an example. Go and find these people. Network with these people. Network on a genuine basis, you know, don't just make it. Hey, I want you to help me find a job. No, go, go in a genuine way and speak to them. Um, and, um, build a relationship with them, have a coffee chat and, uh, tell them that you're interested in their company and that you would, uh, you would love to work when there is an open role.

Jafar: And, uh, guess what? You know, when they have an open role, they will think of you and they will, they [00:21:00] will, they will send you the job description and you will apply and you will have a much, much higher chance of getting in versus, uh, competing with those hundreds of people. That's the philosophy that we want to instill in people.

Jafar: And that's what actually works for us, you know, as a business, that's what we do. So, uh, you know, for us, uh, as, as a company who wants to build relationships and who wants to bring employers. How like what's the likelihood that we when we approach company X that they have an open position right now What's the likelihood like right person?

Jafar: But when we go and we build relationships, we will human relationships Then they will think about they will think of us maybe in three months or in six or in one year You know, I have for example created relationship with all that materialized after one year But when they make when they met he realized You You know, they, they hired three people from top.

Jafar: Um, so that's the kind of dynamic that we want to transfer [00:22:00] over to, uh, the job applicants.

Mehmet: That's fantastic. And if you allow me, Jafar, I will add my two cents over here because, you know, I, again, like this is something I, I try to help, uh, as much as I can, because, you know, the whole, even this podcast is to share my own experience and my guests experience.

Mehmet: So when you go to a job hunt, I call it like You are a salesman and you're trying to sell your skills to the company. And in sales, you need to build a relationship first. And of course, what you mentioned is a hundred percent like accurate. I just want to add a request maybe to you and request to anyone who's listening or watching this.

Mehmet: So when you build the relationship, don't do the mistake that, you know, some of the gurus just between like quotes, uh, they tell you, yeah, go comment on what they wrote on LinkedIn and, you know, and send them like, you need really to be genuine. Like, and he really, he'll see the AI will not help you. Like [00:23:00] there are, I see some plugins and I see some, some tools over there.

Mehmet: Like, yeah, we can see, I use the AI sometime to proofread for me because English is not my first language. Uh, language, right? So it's my second language. So yeah, I use AI to just fix my grammar, grammar mistakes, and maybe some typos that I have. And maybe sometime, you know, I ask it about the tone. Is my tone like aggressive?

Mehmet: Is it like professional? So fix my tone as well to be like this. Nothing wrong in using AI, but you know, like I start to see like recently really something and you feel the other guy is not serious, right? So you feel like they are approaching you, you know what they want and see like it's not shame to go and actually ask to connect with someone or like try to establish a connection, but keep it genuine, keep it authentic, like, um, Like, don't over exaggerate, like, uh, no, really, really try to, to, to add value.

Mehmet: And all the networking experts that I've listened to, I read books, [00:24:00] they tell you, it's actually, it's not one way. So you need also to show what you can give at the same time. Because, and giving is not only transactions money. So sometimes you give your opinion, sometimes, you know, you give a review. So, so networking is, is important.

Mehmet: You know, people think it's easy, but it's more complicated, I think, than, than, than it appears. So, thank you for, for doing this, Jafar, because I think the youth, they, they need this badly, really badly. They need this. You want to add something, I think.

Jafar: Absolutely. I mean, what you said is on point, Hamad, and, you know, research, I mean, that's why research is very important.

Jafar: So when you go out there, uh, you know, before you start, you know, just contacting people, you need to know who you are contacting. And you also, within a company, you need to find the right contact that is relevant. You know, the right contact might be, for example, um, [00:25:00] well, ideally the right contact is the contact that Will be willing to speak to you.

Jafar: They have something in common with you. Maybe they are, uh, from the same country. Maybe they, uh, they did the same university as the one you did. Uh, maybe they care about the same causes that you care about. So, so you have to do your research. Uh, you know, for example, I, I, I kind of, uh, recently I've been connecting with more with people who are.

Jafar: Um, uh, interested of the Palestinian cause. They post about the situation in Gaza, for example. I know. I think these are relevant people that I want to connect with because you know, there's something that we can speak about when we when we chat about things, right? You need you need to start conversations that are genuine.

Jafar: And you also need to show, as you said, Yeah, that that there is. You're not just asking. You're not just extracting value. You're also giving something. Even some some maybe in some cases, you're just giving kindness. That's all, you know, you're just giving kindness or love. That's, I mean, at the end of the day, we're humans.

Jafar: You know, we want to, we want to feel, um, [00:26:00] uh, you know, um, uh, love. We want to be loved. We want to be kind to. So sometimes it's just that, you know, just solidarity, love, kindness, warmth. Those are things that, you know, would enable someone to have a conversation with you. And these are the key to success. And then you have these conversations, you have a, you know, you make it genuine, you make it authentic.

Jafar: And then, and then you can say, Hey, um, I, I'm interested in, um, in, in, in working at your company because of one, two, three, not, not just because I'm just looking for a job, but because of one, two, three, because I fit the role because there is a, it's this, what you're doing or your mission aligns with me. And that, yeah, and then that person, well, they go and talk to their colleague and they say, I spoke with an interesting person.

Jafar: Uh, maybe when we have this position open, let's talk to that person. And it works, you know, magically, but it needs patience, of course, you know, and this is what sometimes we're missing, you know, patience. [00:27:00] Um, patients and, um, you know, we want to be hired tomorrow. No, it's not going to work out that way. Um, even by the way, abroad, even in the Western countries, people just don't get a job right after they graduate.

Jafar: They spend months and it's the same for us.

Mehmet: Absolutely. And, you know, this applies just also, like, hopefully, They will get the job and probably maybe if they decide to go and work in in kind of his sales or marketing. So same thing because you're gonna like applying for a job and then you're gonna try to go contact some customers and sell them something or position something maybe at some stage you will become founders.

Mehmet: And you're going to try to fundraise the same thing. You're going to need to go and talk to investors. So the same thing applies. So, and to your point, Jafar, like, you need to prepare. It's a, I know it's like, it's a cliche, but you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a marathon, not a sprint, you know, right? So, [00:28:00] uh, same, same thing.

Mehmet: You need to have this, Long term vision. You need to have the patience. As you said, I think this is the most critical aspect. I know sometimes it's difficult. I know, like, sometimes it's something you needed because, you know, from, from maybe financial perspective, you need it. And One thing I wish people stop doing, which hurts my heart actually, I don't know who came up with this.

Mehmet: I, we, I start to see it less on LinkedIn. Maybe you agree, maybe disagree, it's my own opinion. When I start to see people, you know, posting a, you know, putting a post on LinkedIn and tagging, tagging companies and, you know, it will, it will not work like this. Like just tagging the company name. Of course the companies will say hey, you know the answer go See if we have opportunities on the website and apply for it.

Mehmet: So this is my own opinion on this now [00:29:00] Let's you want to say something about before I jump to another thing.

Jafar: I mean If it's something genuine that you know, that is I mean if you if you just tell them Hey, uh, i'm looking for opportunities and you tag the companies most likely they will ignore you but if you say something genuine that uh, you know, um You Would make the company like, uh, interested or, you know, it's totally provoking, provoking or something that, you know, that opens their, their eyes to, to it, then yes.

Jafar: But what happens is that most people just abuse it and they just. I mean, this is my CV and just, you know, it's your job now to employ me. It's as if, you know, Hey, I'm looking, employ me, you know, I'm here, you know, go ahead and employ me. That doesn't work.

Mehmet: Exactly. This is what exactly what I wanted to say.

Mehmet: Like, and you know, like I prefer personally to find the decision maker. Like, let's say I'm an accountant, right? Uh, so I'm going to find the head of finance or head of accounting in that company, and I'm going to send him directly. And it's easy today to reach and find, right? So [00:30:00] it's back in the days, it was very tough, you know, in, in, when I, when I graduated, LinkedIn still wasn't, wasn't there.

Mehmet: Right. So, or at least like widely used. So now it's more easy. You can find the people you can, to your point, Jafar, like try to be genuine. And put your emotions within the message, and you will do it. Now, I want to jump to another thing with you. Yeah, please.

Jafar: Maybe just to, sorry to interrupt, Mohamed, but one thing that, because you mentioned AI, Uh, is, I mean, Personally, when I see someone applying to, to TAP and they have ai, uh, they, they, they let AI write the cover letter, for example, or the motivational question.

Jafar: Then I drop them, you know, immediately. Uh, because it, it, it tells me that they have, uh, they have not vested or they have not, um, uh, they, they were not willing to spend the time to write something genuine in the motivational question. [00:31:00] Um. And, um, uh, you know, I, I want to warn all the job seekers who use AI to, to rethink, you know, and use AI in a, in a subtle way, if you, if you, if people know that you're using AI, then you're doomed, you know, you're done, uh, you will, you will just be put on, uh, on the side list, you know,

Mehmet: They will be caught, right?

Mehmet: So, so if, if, again, I explained my way of doing it. I give it just for proofreading and for, um, you know, adjustments, I would say like adjustments. I don't let it write even my, you know, all my, uh, work just because I want to make sure that I'm not doing grammatical problems. And sometimes, you know, I said, okay, if I'm very sure I don't even use it, but, uh, And sometime, you know, like people ask me, okay, but you still allow AI to put the emojis.

Mehmet: I say like, the emojis, the way I ask AI to put emojis because, you know, I, [00:32:00] I learned this, of course, you know, I need talk about learning and unlearning. I, I start to say to, to, I mean, to try to judge GPT, I say don't abuse the , the, the use of emojis. Just put them for ease of readability. So, so this is to people to visualize something, for example, and even sometimes I even don't use it.

Mehmet: So at the end, like AI is just a tool. So you need to put your soul within the words and to your point, Jafar, I think like sooner or later, even if you can trick the system with, uh, CVS and, you know, this, when they, Time comes to the interview like for example now, I'm not AI. I'm the real guy speaking, right?

Mehmet: Maybe this will change in the future. I don't know but I mean at least now this is the genuine this is Jafar He's the real Jafar like it's not it's not the AI but I mean, yeah to your point Yeah, don't don't over exaggerate the use of of AI now I want to quickly jump with you Jafar on something if you don't mind you wanted [00:33:00] to say something

Jafar: One thing I wanted to say, actually, maybe just a tip is that video interviews or video introductions are going to become quite interesting and quite incumbent because you know, if people are, if people have these great tools to help them, right, even if they make it not appear as a I, but you know, if everybody is going to have like excellent capability in writing, then now, um, what's, what's going to be the differentiator?

Jafar: And how, how are you going to, how, how will someone stand out? This is where we need to be, and all the job seekers need to be more comfortable on the camera, more comfortable in recording themselves, because they're going to be asked more and more to, um, to answer, you know, what's your motivation for joining?

Jafar: Uh, just by a video by a video conversation and yeah, that that's going to be an important one moving forward

Mehmet: Yeah to your point like it happened to me. Um, I applied for a cohort. Uh, [00:34:00] Recently and I was accepted The time will and i will announce it later. I don't know if the time will come but anyway So to your point, so there are a lot of things I have I had to fill But there are like two questions.

Mehmet: They say, please put the link to your self recording. And I love it, actually, because these guys, they, they, they, they need to find out who's the genuine applicant to this. And this cohort is really good cohort. You know, it's free, but it's, it's, it's, it's worth tons of, uh, of, of, uh, you know, gold, maybe. I don't know.

Mehmet: So. I love, and to your point, I think this is the, the, the, the direction and the trend that we're going to see the people will ask you to put your own video more. I know like some people in sales at least. They start to do it when they reach out to their customers. So they record themselves to make sure like, Hey, I'm not here.

Mehmet: I'm not an AI written, uh, you know, spammer. I'm a genuine person. I [00:35:00] understand who you are. I understand your company. I understand your need. And I'm just asking you for a meeting. I love these ones. Honestly, of course, maybe from cultural perspective, still us here in the region, we need to get used, but I think this is, will be the mainstream.

Mehmet: I prefer to see a real person. Even if I'm not interested, rather than spending all my day putting things in, in, in the junk, uh, and spam folder. Now, Jafar want to ask you, because You match the talent, uh, with companies abroad, right? So how you are seeing, you know, the acceptance of remote work globally and, you know, how do you see the involvement of, uh, remote job opportunities in the region in general?

Jafar: Yeah. Um, it's actually, uh, growing, I would say not at the face, not at the pace that we want to see. Um, so there's still challenges. And I actually, I [00:36:00] know that, uh, companies, some companies have actually reversed the trend and, you know, especially in the U. S. I know many companies have asked, uh, employees to return to the office.

Jafar: So that was a bit of a setback. But Um, overall, I think the remote culture, uh, it has, like, I think it's the future anyways, um, maybe it's not accelerating at the pace that we wanted to be, but it's the future. Um, and, um, if you want, if you as a company owner, when I get the best talent out there, And you have to be, you have to provide them with flexibility.

Jafar: Uh, Gen Z wants flexibility like, uh, no, no other generation. They, they want to have their, uh, work life integration and they want to do things, uh, they don't have more control of their life. Um, so you, you need to offer it, uh, to, to, to attract the best talent out there. Um, yeah, I mean, typically it's more startups that are, uh, we target startups mainly in our company because [00:37:00] that remote pieces is important.

Jafar: And this is where they excel more than corporates. It's for corporates quite, uh, tough to, to navigate their remote culture. Um, yeah, I mean, I hope, I hope that it will continue to grow and I hope that, um, yeah, we're going to see more and more, uh, corporates even turning towards remote.

Mehmet: Yeah. Uh, you know, again, Uh, I understand some, some positions they require you to be in the office.

Mehmet: I understand this, like maybe because of the nature of the work itself. But anything that has, I would say, requires us to use our mental capabilities, right? Like maybe coding. Of course, I'm not saying like, don't do these team activities. Of course, encourage, I encourage people to do team activities. Try to come together, you know, like if you can give the job and you know, everyone is aligned on what the company is trying to do.

Mehmet: And I've spoke on this podcast to a lot of founders and when I asked them like, Where are, where are [00:38:00] the team members? They said they are all over the place. And I asked them, okay, so some of them, they are in the US. I mean, US based companies, some of them, they are Canada based. Some of them, Australia. I asked, okay, so I understand you have like people, maybe in India, some people in Pakistan, some people in Eastern Europe, some people even here in Um, and they say, yeah, like, uh, of course, like we, they are working remotely and we don't have to monitor them because, you know, we have the proper, you know, way to track the things and we have communication channels, they respect, of course, the time zones perspective.

Mehmet: And when I asked them about, you know, and they are startups. About people who live, let's say, within their geography, they say, yeah, because we cannot, like, treat people differently. If we give the flexibility to these guys, we cannot, like, force the ones who are sitting in our same time zone to come to an office.

Mehmet: Of course, like, we have a base, we have an office, and we use it, like, maybe for You know, all hands meetings, [00:39:00] team activities, like these kinds of things. And to your point, Java, like, and I've seen it from Gen Z, you ask them, you know, man, like I can't imagine myself sitting in a cubicle. How you guys, you were able to sit like this.

Mehmet: And even sometimes I ask myself, I say, I don't know how I was able to handle this. You know, you are just closed, no sunlight, like. You basically feel like you are in a jail cell. Anyway, so, so, so I agree with you. Now, I still have one question for you before we, we, we're done. Let me just elaborate

Jafar: on that point, because basically if, if, uh, you know, the top performing people, you know, the, the, the, the creative people, uh, don't want to be, Um told what to do and they don't want to be even if you if you try to put them Even if you try to give them a I don't know nine to five job and you tell them Hey, you have to come at nine You have to leave at five or you try to tell them that you have to take your break at 1 p.

Jafar: m Or you know, you have to be there. [00:40:00] I mean It's not going to work. You know, these people, um, you need to give them trust and you need to give them autonomy. This is how they function. This is how they do their best. If you box them in certain, you know, constraints, they, most likely they will leave. They will not continue with you and you will lose, you will lose them.

Jafar: So yeah, um, uh, flexibility and, uh, you know, of course, remote, remote work is one of the main pillars is going to be essential to attract the best people. If you want, just want to attract like average people, then, okay, go, go ahead with, uh, with your constraints and your, uh, right.

Mehmet: Right. And here, you know, you just, I remember like the best one, you know, I'm probably maybe a little bit, uh, biased because I talk too much about the guy, but you know, he, he's a respected, he was a respected guy.

Mehmet: Steve Jobs said it better. It doesn't make sense to hire people. Smart people [00:41:00] and tell them what to do. You have to hire smart people so they can tell us what to do. And this applies like, you know, when he, I think when he mentioned this, he was not only talking about like, you know, giving instructions and all this because, and he, and another quote, I remember, like he said, like, like smart people start to, to bring smart people as well and to have to your point, Jafar, to, to, to establish and to have this flourishing, you know, smartness in a way, like smartness, I mean, like.

Mehmet: You know, creativity. So you need to give some, some space for, for, uh, innovation and all this. And if you put these old fashioned strict rules, good luck. Like, as you said, like, yeah, you might be able to do something, but not on the long run. My last question to you Jafar today, because you really, you know, also like, maybe we didn't touch on that.

Mehmet: You've done this a couple of times, like you, you, you co founded, you know, the studio before, like where the, you know, the I. T. outsourcing and so on. And for sure, like by now you [00:42:00] have, and you, you talk a lot to companies and you talk to the, to the talents. So if you want to leave us with your thoughts and your advice for.

Mehmet: Fellow entrepreneurs, so people who are interested in entrepreneurship, especially in our geography, what you would tell them?

Jafar: Yeah, quite, quite some learnings that I had. You know, one thing that I think is important is to keep a long term view and think that success will take time to materialize. it will, I can average it takes takes 10 years for a company to be successful. So you really, you really need to be invested for the long term and you make you make your decisions, um, so that they support you long term.

Jafar: Um, you know, whether it's hiring, whether it's how you spend your money, whether it's what product you build, um, [00:43:00] just have that long term view because This is gonna take a while. Um, you know, you need to have the patience and you need to have the perseverance. Um, and one thing also, uh, that is important is always, uh, get into that journey with someone.

Jafar: Don't, don't be, don't be alone. I, you know, with Chris, for example, um, he's been, uh, very supportive co founder. And, you know, I typically, you know, I don't I, I strongly advise anyone who gets into entrepreneurship to, to, to have a co founder and, you know, select their co founder well, uh, because they're going to be your life partner.

Mehmet: That's great inside Jafar. Like, uh, you know, the points you mentioned is the, you know, which I repeat also, and every single founder, you know, successful founder like yourself, uh, was on the show and even on the other [00:44:00] podcast, because I heard, I listened to a lot of them. So they mentioned the same thing.

Mehmet: When you start something, you have to put in your mind you are going places for long, long, long time. It's not like a, yeah, like I'm going to do this two, three years and then I'm going to flip it and then Okay, you might be lucky you are building something and someone will come and buy it from you. Of course, I'm not saying, but your vision should be for the long term.

Mehmet: This is a hundred percent because this is how you'll be able, in my opinion, to, to get the right talent. You'll be able to get, you know, even the customers will, will, will feel this, like even your own customers. So I hundred percent agree with you, Jafar. And, uh, you know, I really, uh, enjoyed the discussion with you today, Jafar.

Mehmet: It was like very, very, uh, Uh, I would say rich conversation enlightening conversation and I wish you and TAP team You know all the success because you also have a cause helping people In in palestine jordan, and I know that you have the plan for the whole mina region also [00:45:00] as well So, you know, I really congratulate you and the team on on this effort and uh, wish you all the best And this is how I end my episodes usually this is from for the audience.

Mehmet: If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed it. Please subscribe, give up a summed up also as well and share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you are one of the loyal followers that keep coming, thank you very much for your support. I really appreciate it.

Mehmet: And as I say again always don't hesitate to reach out to me if you have any Suggestion if you have a guest you want to suggest or you are yourself a guest who want to appear Don't be shy reach out to me time zones is not a difference I think I covered now all geographies from the west coast on the us till new zealand.

Mehmet: So time zone we can arrange it Thank you very much for tuning in and we'll meet again very soon. Thank you. Bye. Bye