#363 Maintaining the North Star from a CTO Perspective: Francis Lacoste on the Inner Game of Leadership

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Mehmet: Hello, and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet. Today, I'm very pleased joining me from Canada, Francis Lacoste. Francis, thank you very much for being with me on the show today. Actually, you put your title there, the VPE coach. So [00:01:00] the way I like to do it is, you know, just ask my guests about, you know, their background and what they are currently up to.

Mehmet: So the floor is yours.

Francis: Thank you Mehmet, really happy to be here. Um, so I'm Francis Lacoste. I live in Montreal and I'm now a professional executive coach with, um, working mainly with CTOs and VP of engineering. Um, I help them to, um, make the transition, I mean, to grow, really to grow with their, uh, their org.

Francis: So work with a lot with, uh, scaling startup, um, when the team is, Going growing fast and um, I I really like this this this This challenge, because this is where the culture, the future culture of the organization needs to be established. And, uh, the perinaty where there's a little bit more chances that this organization will be here for a longer term.

Francis: So, um, that that's really what I, what I love. [00:02:00] Um, my background is I had a long career in engineering management, technical leadership, uh, did, uh, Was at Salesforce and Heroku and started a long time ago as a software engineer, mainly working in open source and the initial cloud space.

Mehmet: Great. And again, thank you for being with me here today, Francis.

Mehmet: You mentioned something which Immediately attracted my curiosity. And to be frank with you, you know, I had, uh, you know, also coaches who work with startup, startup founders, uh, and even with, with CTOs and, but I like every time to hear the point of view of my guests about the challenges. And you mentioned, you know, like.

Mehmet: Especially in the transition phase from being, you know, this tiny, small, maybe they are like five or six in the together and they start to grow very [00:03:00] fast. So they need to hire more developers. They need to hire more people, maybe even more product managers and so on. And you mentioned something about this pain that you like to help them solve without.

Mehmet: So, and I'm sure it's not only one pain, Francis. So I want to hear your point of view. What are like the major challenges they face? when they start this journey of, you know, being, you know, I like to call it going out of the shell. So they were just inside the shell and now they are going out to the bigger world and they need to, to, to have a real company culture.

Mehmet: So what are the main challenges you see?

Francis: Yeah. So I, I, um, Two, two challenges here. Um, I mean, there are many of them, but I would, I would, I would put them in two category. Um, the, the first one, and this is, um, we often don't talk about it, but it's the, It's, it's kind of the identity shift that it's kind of a more personal [00:04:00] challenge, um, working with CTOs or which are often like the technical co founders when they get out of the shell, you know, there's kind of a, a decision point, you know, who, what is the role that they want?

Francis: Do they want to continue to grow and then transition from the product builder to the builder of the organization that builds the product? That's a very different, uh, role in a way. And. So there is, and with this change of role, there's often an identity shift, you know, because often we, uh, especially if you're the founder, you kind of invest usually too much of your identity in your project, in the organization.

Francis: Um, and then, um, and, and if you're a technical co founder, often your, your, your identity will be tied to, uh, Doing technical work, you know, building the product, making technical decisions, all of this. And as you grow your role shift from less being hands on and doing everything, making all of these calls to empowering and building, they're creating [00:05:00] the larger context in which, um, your vision and your skills can.

Francis: can work on their own, you know, and, and, and people are autonomous and, and carrying it forward. So this is like, first challenge is identity in a way, the identity change that's required. And then that manifests like in multiple facets. But I, if I had like to abstract it, this would be like the first abstraction, the second one.

Francis: Uh, and these are the challenge I put like on the, the culture side. So when you're a small, uh, Often there's kind of something organic. You know everyone you've been in the trenches together and now you're going to add um a lot of people to it and if you're um Your culture is not formally defined and and and you don't know exactly how you what you want the organization to become then um When you double the size of the team, you know, if you go from 10 to 20 in say a year, which is not super fast, but is [00:06:00] still, um, you in within a year, you will have more people who are coming from outside the organization with different backgrounds.

Francis: Um, That if, and if it's, there's not like a strong center of gravity to, uh, to, for them to integrate, then, um, often you, what you see is kind of a dilution of the culture, then it becomes like much more, and this, I mean, 10 to 20 is, Not that bad, but, you know, 20 to 40, that's usually when things starts to stretch really.

Francis: And then, um, uh, it becomes very chaotic and, and there's this, uh, yes, this feeling of integration is lost itself. So usually the call there's like, I would, I work with both the personal challenges and the cultural team challenges.

Mehmet: Now, this is very interesting. You know, like you, you, you divided into two categories, the identity and the culture.

Mehmet: [00:07:00] Now, When you work with, with, uh, you know, with these startups who are growing very fast, Francis, there must be someone, but who should be carrying the flag to make sure that, you know, while we are growing, this flag doesn't get, you know, too much shaken. And then we lose track because I believe the consequences of having this, and I heard it even from founders and technical co founders, like the biggest thing they are scared, uh, from is like having someone from the founding team, maybe a founding engineer to leave them.

Mehmet: Right. And then because they have these changes now who takes responsibility of this? Is it like the CTO and, um, you know, the technical co founder is the CEO also should be involved in this. If they are like, Kind of two, two co founders or more over there. There must be someone [00:08:00] accountable for this, Francis, who do you think usually is the right person to, to have this, uh, uh, task assigned to?

Francis: Yes, exactly. This is a great question, Mehmet. The. I'd say it's actually the realist, the accountability lies in the leadership team. Um, so it doesn't need to be one individual, but the leadership teams, which usually in a startup will be the co founders and maybe like if they hired an executive, uh, to join for sales or marketing or whatever, you know, what is the leadership team that is the team which needs to own the cultural and direction of the company.

Francis: And. If we want to, to, to really put an, uh, someone on it, well, at the end of the day, it's the CEO's responsibility, making sure that the leadership team. owns this. Now, in a startup, which is very technical, I think the CTO is also kind of a key [00:09:00] holder there because of the impact of culture, particularly in the product development sphere.

Francis: But so there needs to be a champion on the leadership team, which can be the CEO, can be like the CTO, can be You need a champion on the leadership team. And at the end of the day, it's the leadership team that is responsible for the company, making sure the culture is strong and healthy. That's why, you know, I like the flag, you know, which is, I mean, there's an image of the flag and also another image I like is the North star, um, you know, which is, okay, where is it?

Francis: What we're adding the compass.

Mehmet: Right, right, right, right. So. You mentioned a couple of things about leadership and, you know, while preparing for the episode, I've seen a term that you use, which you call it inner game. Uh, for the CTO and probably when, when they have grown enough and they have [00:10:00] maybe a VP for engineering.

Mehmet: So what do you mean by the inner game? And like, is that like something that impact also, you know, the, the, the way the leadership role is, is seen and the way they, they kinda execute on the plan. And of course culture is part of making sure like, you know. We stay on the same culture. We create a healthy culture for the team.

Francis: Yeah, so the inner game, I come, this term comes, um, I mean, what it points to is all the self awareness, emotional, intelligent, um, your set of beliefs, this dynamic of, Who am I? You know, the identity aspects. These are all tied to the inner game. And this is super important because in a way, this is how we show up.

Francis: You know, I mean, how we're going to show up as a leader. is in, is in, um, [00:11:00] great part, this inner game, the development of character. And I, I call it the inner game. And this came from, um, the, there's an initiative, which is called the inner developmental goals. Um, I don't know if you heard of it. Um, and this was, this started.

Francis: Um, a couple of years ago, um, when, I mean, you're probably aware of this, uh, the Sustainable Development Goals, which is this UN, uh, initiative about what are our goals so that we don't, you know, we can continue to live on this planet, you know, and, um, unfortunately we have these SDGs, the Sustainable Development Goals, but we're not, As a planet, not necessarily, I mean, we're not working fast enough probably to meet these goals.

Francis: And so some people kind of, uh, uh, as a question, I'll be, why, why are we, what, what is preventing us from making more progress? Or more rapidly on these things. And he came up with the inner development goals, which are related to this inner [00:12:00] cultivation, uh, things around, um, uh, you know, the intellectual skills, the emotional skills, the leadership skills needed, um, so that we can work together to achieve the sustainable development.

Francis: So the inner game is, is kind of everything related to these dimensions.

Mehmet: Got it. Um, one of the things you just mentioned, which is also something I believe very important, Francis, is so about the emotions about, you know, the psychological effect, let's call it on on the team while they are growing. So everyone says, yeah, working in startup.

Mehmet: And this is not only for the founders, of course, it's for the early team as well. So it's gonna be a lot of work. It's going to be a lot of pressure, especially, you know, if they Maybe they raised some funds and now they have this Mandate, let's say that to show the investors like we are on the right track.

Mehmet: We need to [00:13:00] generate revenue and It's a responsibility of everyone, which is true. Like, I mean, it's not only for the salespeople and the marketing people. It's also part of what the engineers would be doing. The part of what everyone on the technical side of the business will be doing. So how important here is, is to also have this, you know, um, kind of balance between what the business needs, you know, because of course, when we say growth, it's not growth only in the number of the team.

Mehmet: It's also growth in the business. Right. Revenue. So how to balance this, you know, from your perspective, because I know like, uh, you know, this is one of the probably, uh, top of mind for, for, um, you know, the VP of engineers, engineering, and the CTOs who want really to protect their teams as well, but at the same time, they need also to, to show them the pressure that we need to deliver on [00:14:00] time.

Mehmet: We need to, you know, to, to, you know, Fast forward the product development to go to market because we don't want the competition to come before us and so on and so on. So how to maintain this balance and you know, what are like, you know, the things usually when you work with your clients, you focus on to have this feeling of safety at the same time, keeping, you know, going out full fledged.

Francis: Yes. Um, so balance is, is, is always dynamic. So, and, and to, and the, the, The way I think about it is, um, so there's three, three aspects here I want to touch on that you, you mentioned. Um, so there's the, everything related to the business matrix. To me, this is, um, If we focus on that, you know, if we've made that like the center of our intention, we're kind of flying, we're kind of [00:15:00] losing touch with what is it, the organization?

Francis: Because I mean, revenue, I mean, revenue is never the goal. I mean, revenue is more kind of the, the, the gauge of how you're doing on your goal. It can be a gauge of how you're doing on your goal. Because I mean, if your revenue, I mean, When you're in business, you're not in business to make revenue, you know, I mean, you, you need revenue to for the business to continue, you know, why are you doing, uh, building an AI tool instead of, you know, selling windows or construction?

Francis: These are all businesses. They all generate revenue. I mean, it's because probably you have like a vision, something related to that you believe in that can be a business. So in a way, the, the, the business metrics are kind of your dashboard to seeing like. The car is the car running well and and all of that.

Francis: So you need to pay attention to that. But if you only pay attention to do that, that then you miss your I mean, you lose touch with your North Star, you know what the flag that [00:16:00] we talked about. Um, and and this is so the balance is, um, is is not between the it. Revenue, the business revenue and the, the, the fun that the company is adding, you know, the, I think the, the balance that you find for an eye performing organization is between the clarity of the North star.

Francis: It says, okay, this is what we're doing and this is how we're doing about it. And the, this is like the vertical, I don't know why, because it's aligned, the North star, it's in the star, that's why it's the vertical dimension. So this is one thing. And then the other aspect is the, um, everything related to the working as a team, working as an organization, as one team, one organization that these like where the values that if you want to put a name to it, you could.

Francis: But like the psychological safety dimension, you know, which most, uh, the Aristotle study at Google and then others have shown that [00:17:00] this is the highest predictor if you want of high performance in a way. I know if you don't have that, then, uh, I mean, this even I like very much Patrick, Patrick Lencioni and five dysfunction of a team.

Francis: You know, this. Trust vulnerability based trust was the first dysfunction. This is this dimension. So this is very important. And once you have these two dimensions, this is how the balance is achieved, you know, that you can then read on your dashboard. And there are new growing and that sort of thing. But the revenue is kind of the, uh, the, the, it's kind of, it's, I mean, All business will tell you revenue is a lagging indicator.

Francis: So it's kind of the emergent property of, uh, of your execution and, and how good you're at execution, uh, and finding this balance between where we're heading, what we think this business is about and our ability to actually work together to achieve it.

Mehmet: You know, like, um, couldn't agree more on, on, on this point with you, [00:18:00] Francis, you mentioned, you know, the team and, you know, like, um, you know, this, uh, psychological safety now we are currently kind of, I would say majority of the startups accepting hybrid remote first, right?

Mehmet: And When we need to convey this culture message, the emotion message, the psychological safety message. Now, back in the days, these teams, they used to be in a garage. Maybe they used to be in a, I don't know, they used to rent somewhere cheap so they can all meet together, work on their projects and, and their, you know, gigs, I would say, and it was a closed environment.

Mehmet: So, Within a remote environment, and especially, you know, we talked a lot about, you know, the effects of pandemic on the show, whether from, you know, managing the teams and whether about, you know, to, to make [00:19:00] sure that we can deliver what we are aiming to deliver. But when it comes to, to this, points, Francis, which is like the culture, you know, letting the team feel they are comfortable, safe.

Mehmet: How do you think, you know, and keeping this North star, right. And I like when you say, you know, it's like vertical because it's vertical. It's a North star, but the North star, how much accurate it can stay in a very distributed team, uh, assignment, let's call it this way. And how do you advise usually, again, the startups you work with to make sure that even if they have a remote kind of maybe hybrid kind of, of, uh, team to still not lose the North star.

Mehmet: We, we talked about.

Francis: Yes. I mean, there's so much in what you in this question. Um, so one thing I didn't say when I presented myself at the beginning was I've been actually working [00:20:00] remotely for over 20, almost 25 years at this point. Um, I mean, I did mention open source. So, I mean, the free software movement back in the end of the nineties, early 2000 was all over the Internet.

Francis: And, and so. And we're working in companies that were in that environment, which were already remote first. Um, so a lot of experience working in a distributed environment. And, and you're right, you know, um, And, and the trick, so you, you mentioned the impact of COVID. And I think COVID was, um, both, I mean, It was hard for the planet in so many ways, but from looking at it for the perspective of remote work, I think it was kind of, it was good.

Francis: It was because it kind of showed everyone that, Hey, we can actually work remotely, you know, because there are a lot of people who just couldn't believe that this was possible. So I, we can actually be very productive without working all together in an [00:21:00] office. And at the same time, I think it was kind of a.

Francis: It hurt remote work because it gave a very skewed impression of what remote work is and the backlash that we're seeing now about like, oh, let's return to office. It's kind of a bit in reaction to that more than to remote work because when I was working remotely. Um, before, um, working without meeting your colleagues was not how you work remotely.

Francis: When I was at Canonical, we were meeting, I mean, and in most companies, we were meeting from four to two to four times, or sometimes more depending, but that's getting too much, but two to four times a year, you know, the team would meet, um, at, at, When there when less travel could be quarterly for the planning and things like that.

Francis: Um, and and this points to there's a I mean, as humans, we are, uh, we know how to build closer relationship when we see [00:22:00] people, you know, I mean, that we see people, but we live close to people. Um, and at the same time, I think this is, so this is important, but there, this is not the only way. And it's, it's missing actually the critical way in which we build trust with people.

Francis: And, and this was, uh, I mentioned Patrick Lencioni, you know, uh, is, uh, first dysfunction was absence of trust. And the trust that he was talking about was vulnerability based trust, which is. The definition of psychological safety now, you know, kind of how the group is, is deemed safe for taking interpersonal risk, which is the idea that, hey, if I see something here, I know I trust this group enough that they're not to take it the wrong way and, and use it against me.

Francis: I'm safe to, uh, to take risk in a way and to be vulnerable. And, um, so this is the, the active ingredient ingredient to getting people to work together. [00:23:00] Sure, getting to meet people in person. It just kind of, it's, it's a catalyst. It makes things every, I mean, uh, you, you meet in person and then like, you get a lot of goodwill and, and, and for the online after that, you know, for three to six months without any issue.

Francis: But if you know that. Vulnerability is the key. You can, you can, and the ingredient, you can, you can use that to your, uh, in your, in your meetings and your activities to kind of tap into that and reinforce that, Hey, you can be vulnerable and it's going to be, uh, Uh, honored and respected and even rewarded in a way.

Francis: Um, so there, this can, can be done online. If you do that both online and in person, then this is how you accelerate the trust for real. And, um, to the, the clarity about the North Star. So I don't think it's about being in person or [00:24:00] remote actually in this case. Um, what, what in person allows is that for you can have conversation Without the lags and like, especially in big groups might be easier to get everyone to get on the same page.

Francis: But really the North star, the clarity comes from being clear, achieving clarity around it, and then repeating it again and again so that people will Know it internalize it and then can make uh, I mean if if I have to check with the captain every time to see where The north star is it's is it really an r star?

Francis: I mean, it's it's not as efficient than if I actually can Know myself and then when it takes time for me to take a decision as an engineer or product manager I kind of know I know where we're aligned as an organization. So that's the work that needs to happen.

Mehmet: Absolutely So just out of you know, because we repeated the the term north star so communication is key Right.

Mehmet: So everyone is on, on, on the same page, as we say [00:25:00] now, any framework, because of course the most known one is the OKR, right? So like, is this usually what you advise, you know, these, uh, startups to use, or like, do you have something else for keeping this Northstar communicated and you know, in front of everyone, even if they are not in the office, maybe even on, they are overseas sometimes.

Francis: Yes, so I'm kind of somebody who is Um,

Francis: I'm actually a framework mental models, uh, collector. I there's a tons of them, and they're all interesting and good in their own context. So if an organization is kind of working with O. K. R. S. Then yes. Okay, let's make sure that the O. K. R. S. Actually are the way that you're using to Communicate the North Star.

Francis: Um, I mean, I come from Salesforce. Salesforce was using the V two mom for that, which is another tool, [00:26:00] and I'm actually not a big fan of either. Okay, ours or V two mom or anything, because I think it's often. People will focus on the mechanics and the letter and then forget what it is about. So you can have like a lot of OKRs and nobody knows really what is the North Star of the company, you know, because they're just trying to, they're kind of, they are looking at the instrument instead of looking at the direction.

Francis: Um, and so, yes, OKRs, V2MOMs, just a napkins with principles, cascading, our cascading priorities, these can all work if you use them to actually communicate something that is very clear. Um, and that should be like, It should, it should be a one pager in a way, you know, I mean, and this is often what happens with OKRs has got to transform what could be a one page into like a 30 different things and then you kind of lose the forest for the tree.

Mehmet: Yeah. So as we say, don't [00:27:00] overcomplicate things like yes. Yeah. So in a

Francis: startup, you know, like. 30 people, OKR, I mean, OKRs came from IBM or Intel. It was Intel actually, you know, this is a very large corporation and the problem they're optimizing for another problem of a 30 people startup. So,

Mehmet: yeah, definitely.

Mehmet: You know, some people, you know, what happens, they see something, they read about something, they get fascinated with it and they say, Hey, let's, let's implement this in our organization. It happens not only, you know, and with the technical teams, it might happen with the sales teams. It might happen with the marketing teams where someone sees something on the internet, especially, you know, now like everyone be kind of, you know, share these things.

Mehmet: Hey, like this is the framework I used in my company. Um, you know, we achieved seven X, um, you know, whatever metric is for like, whether it's sales, whether like performance, productivity and so on. And [00:28:00] everyone starts to follow the same thing because they think, yeah, if we just copy and paste it here, it will work.

Mehmet: And my opinion is always, yeah, I love frameworks, but I would say. Um, try to use them as a guidance, not as a copy paste approach. Like,

Francis: yeah, yeah. Cargo call thing is the worst.

Mehmet: Exactly. So, so try to get inspiration from what other people have done using these frameworks and always, you know, but you know what, Francis, and maybe this is something I want to ask you about.

Mehmet: My observation is, Although like maybe it's like not, uh, it's contradictory with the, with the context of startups. But what I have seen is like people, they like to use shortcuts. Yes,

Francis: we love shortcuts.

Mehmet: Me included, don't get me wrong guys, so me included. But shouldn't we at, in a [00:29:00] startup culture, uh, really try to see and be creative.

Mehmet: Don't use something which is kind of a status quo. And this is why I wanted to ask you, like in your work, like you, you work with founders a lot and co founders. So I think they need always this. Someone to whisper to them that guys, you need to do this, guys, you need to do this. So this is why I wanted to ask you, like, how important is always to have this coach next to you?

Mehmet: Or I know that coaching is different than mentoring. I had a episode about this, but I mean, How important to have this coaching, you know, uh, you know, next to them. Uh, so they don't get dragged in, in, in these kind of acts that might actually harm them, not help them.

Francis: Yes. Um, I mean, I think, I mean, I'm a coach, so obviously this is super [00:30:00] beneficial.

Francis: Um, but I, I think the important thing here is that, um, and you said something about the frameworks and the internet is great, you know, everything is on the internet. Uh, the internet is also very problematic. Everything is on the internet. So, um, as.

Francis: co founders or startup leaders. And I mean, as leaders, we all do this. We look at the internet and then we look at what others are doing and we say, Oh, they're successful. They're using this. If I use this, I'm going to be successful as well. And that's, that's totally, you know, this is not sound reasoning, but this is how it goes.

Francis: And the important thing is kind of understanding, Oh, okay. They've been successful. What is their definition of success? The definition that I'm interested in, what is the context they're operating in? Is this my context? So, I mean, using others as guidance, unless we understand really the context in which they're operating and where they're heading, then [00:31:00] if we copy it, or even like be inspired by it, um, we, we.

Francis: We might not be, we're, we're, we're not going to be successful really, you know, because the success comes from a deep understanding of our own context, where we're going, our own resources and out to get there. And this is, this is what a coach does. You know, and a coach is, you said this different than mentoring.

Francis: So yeah. So in a way I'm kind of, I'm not an advisor. I'm not a consultant. And when I work with cons, this is why I said, okay, the startup is using OKR. Okay. Let's I can work with OPR. This is not the point, you know, it kind of the, I'm not there to tell them what to do or how to do it. Um, I'm there really to help them to deepen their understanding of what is it that they're, uh, what is their business?

Francis: How do you want to do it? What are their, what is their goal? Are they're going about it and get clarity around that. And then, um, L them to get like, uh, yeah, it's kind of getting a third [00:32:00] person, allowing you to see yourself from multiple directions. And then benefit from, okay, well, I, these are things you might encounter things like that to fuel their reflection.

Francis: Um, so this is how, uh, and, and this is super important to us, you know, in a way I think you, you don't need a coach. I don't think, I mean, you need a coach to succeed that that's not, that would be disingenuous. Uh, I don't really believe that. Um, but what you do need is as a space where you're able to.

Francis: reflect and, and, and, and simmer what is it that you're doing and get a perspective on it. Um, now getting a coach, working with a coach is a great way to add that, to create that space, you know, because you're, you're going to meet your coach on a regular basis that that's time in your schedule where you're going to take that and, and you're going to be invited to, to establish this even outside of that container.[00:33:00]

Francis: But this is what is really critical, the critical piece is getting a space where you're able to take a perspective on what you're doing and reflect on it, try and, and, and, and, and adjust, you know, um, a coach can do that, you know, can be part of a peer group. Um, you can have like a journaling practice and, and, and each of these gives you that in a different way.

Francis: So doing two or more kinds of great synergies, but the key point is really this. Getting where in your life, you know, where in your profession, do you take that time to reflect and create space around, get out of the. the treadmill of trying to get to the next place and kind of taking a perspective. Well, am I really running in the right direction?

Francis: You know, because running faster, if I'm not going in the right direction, it's not going to help.

Mehmet: Yeah. Makes sense also as well, Francis, to, to your point. Now, one thing you mentioned, which now it came to my mind. Now, you've been doing this for [00:34:00] a long time. And just because you mentioned like, uh, like if, if, if, if, They are building, let's say something related to AI or something like this now, and you know, you've, you've been yourself in, in that space as well.

Mehmet: I mean, you, you are working on the other side. You've, you've been like a software engineer yourself. And then, you know, different, you know, you, you took the ladder also now. What's happening today is with the AI mainly is that we are having really very fast changes that are happening that might affect even the direction of the company.

Mehmet: Now, if we think about it from a CTO slash VP engineering perspective, do you agree with me that also this creates another layer of, um, like pressure on them also as well to, to keep, you know, uh, you know, up to the, what, what the latest things are out there, maybe because not only the shareholders, [00:35:00] they want to, to listen like, Hey, like we are building an AI thing.

Mehmet: We, we're gonna put AI in. The application, we are building

Francis: everything everywhere,

Mehmet: but I mean, also because they, they feel the sad, they feel like, okay, if we don't do this, we're going to miss out, or maybe the competition going to take out on this. So how do I advise, you know, from leadership perspective also to have this kind of resiliency, um, to the fast changes that happens outside of their control.

Mehmet: Like, for example, something like. Open AI releasing chat GPT all of a sudden and maybe a bunch of startups were building on top of their API and they almost became obsolete, right? So, so how to deal with such like fast, dramatic, um, technological changes?

Francis: Yeah, this is, that's a very, uh, interesting area of inquiry.

Francis: Um, so I'm, I'm, [00:36:00] I mean, that would be strong, but I'm kind of an AI skeptic. I'm, this is not true, but I'm more on the AI skepticism side than the, um, uh, The, you know, I forgot who said like their A. Is going to change humanity. There will be a before and after a, I, you know, kind of I think it was like it's bigger than the invention of fire or something like that.

Francis: I forgot who it was an A. I. Person. Obviously, they were, you know, selling there. They're Kool Aid. Um, but the one thing is for sure is that AI is probably one of these big way that is going to disrupt the industry in the same ways that the cloud or, uh, the mobile, uh, change, uh, the industry. And we're still at the beginning of that.

Francis: shift, you know, and what is how, uh, and how it's going to fall out. Um, now this, whenever there's a turbulent times like that, um, [00:37:00] you need to be on the lookout for what it is, you know, in your vicinity, but you also want, don't get to be too distracted because what the industry will be In five years is too soon to tell, you know, and then you can try to find your your way depending on where you are in your business.

Francis: But I mean, this is a different question. If you're, you know, pre series, a you don't have market product market fit, or if you have product market fit, because I mean, even if there's the cloud today, there's still I mean, the world is big. There's a lot of niche, and it doesn't necessarily mean that your niche is big.

Francis: Going to be shattered by this new way. It might, it might not, but so in a way, I think the, the way to navigate is to go for, um, so ground yourself as a leader kind of, okay, yes, there's a lot of noise here and the new [00:38:00] cycle is just spinning and then I can try to spin with the new cycle, which is very uncomfortable, or I can kind of take a step back.

Francis: Okay. What is it really that we're building here? How does, how is that related? And, and, and, and go at it from that perspective, you know, so it kind of relax, don't panic. Nothing's under control. That's kind of the mantra.

Mehmet: Nice. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. Of course. Like I say, like, you know, keep, keep, again, I come, I, maybe I repeat myself a lot, you know, like, but balance is key here.

Mehmet: Maybe balance in a sense, like, okay, okay. Keep an eye on what's happening outside, but don't lose track of what you have built already. Yeah, exactly.

Francis: Yeah.

Mehmet: And again, maybe I'm repeating myself and I'm repeating the words of my guests also as well. Like the whole startup thing, you know, it's about, you know, being lean and, you know, try and pivot.

Mehmet: You know, see what the market really needs and then based on that take a decision Don't rush up things very fast and [00:39:00] don't wait too much until you react also as well So maybe i'm repeating again myself And what you mentioned, you know, I like this mantra like it's it's a spot on I would say francis um Like as we are almost coming to an end francis like any final things you want to share with CTOs, VP of engineering.

Mehmet: So out on the verge of growing up. And also this is a question I ask all the time where people can find more about you and get connected.

Francis: Yes. Um, so if you're about to grow, I think the first thing to, I would advise the leaders there is, do you know, I mean, do you have a clear idea of, What is your organization about and how you want to go about it, you know, because that that is that that's kind of the kernel, which around which the you'll be able to grow.

Francis: If that's not clear, then the growth is going to be a little bit wobbly [00:40:00] in the best of cases. So get clarity on that. And, um. I love working with, uh, people who wants to grapple with these questions and work for that. And the best way to reach me is actually on LinkedIn, uh, Francis Lacoste, the VP coach on LinkedIn, uh, or I mean, I have a website, the vp.

Francis: coach, but really LinkedIn, uh, is great because, and I love having conversation with folks. So don't. Don't hesitate to contact me on LinkedIn.

Mehmet: Sure. Great. Thank you very much Francis for the audience Don't worry, you will find the links in the show notes, so you don't have to search and you know repeat So everything will be in the show notes You can go and connect with Francis and you can visit the website also as well Again, Francis, you know, this is one of the episodes, you know, like, uh, I think, I hope, you know, people loved it because I love the conversation.

Mehmet: Uh, anything [00:41:00] that touches anything that touches growth culture is close to my heart because I know like this is sometime is what makes or, you know, You know, don't make, you know, the startup, right? So it's, it's a key over there. Culture, culture, culture. I repeat that. Yes. Product is important, but culture is more important.

Mehmet: And I have a theory, Francis, if, if you have a healthy culture, so you have healthy teammates with you, and then you're going to have healthy relationship with your customers. So it's like kind of a, you know, circle that completes each other. So thank you very much for sharing these insights.

Francis: It was a great conversation, Matt.

Francis: Thank you very much.

Mehmet: Thank you for you. And this is how usually I end also my, my episodes is for the audience. If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by. If you like it, please subscribe and share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you are one of the people who keeps coming, the loyal followers who keep sending me their suggestions and comments, please Keep them coming also as well.

Mehmet: I [00:42:00] read all of them. And as I say always, thank you very much for tuning in. We'll be again very soon. Thank you. Bye bye