#368 Entrepreneurial Selling and Magnetic Leadership: Lessons from Andrew Sykes

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet today I'm very pleased joining me from the US from Chicago Andrew Sykes Andrew Thank you very much for being with me on the show here today The way I as I was telling you I like to do it Is I keep it to my guests to [00:01:00] introduce themselves because I believe no one else can tell the journey and you know The the thing that they do better than themselves.

Mehmet: So the floor is yours Andrew

Andrew: Fantastic firstly, I am privileged to be on the show. I am a big fan. So thank you for having me. I am You My name is Andrew Sykes. I grew up in South Africa, which is why I have this accent and I've been a lifelong entrepreneur. I've had the privilege of starting my own company when I was 21 in South Africa.

Andrew: I've lived and worked in six continents. I've been in the U S for the last. 17 years now, uh, call Chicago home and I have a portfolio career. You know, one of my businesses is habits at work, a company that helps leaders and salespeople develop the skills and habits that define a magnetic human being. I'm a professor at the Kellogg sales Institute, part of the Kellogg school of management in Chicago.

Andrew: So that's. A beautiful fun thing to do to teach people the fine art [00:02:00] of entrepreneurial selling And i'm a lead facilitator for serene or serene as we call it c e r e n e dot life It's a personal transformation business that helps people to become Unrecognizable to themselves in all the best ways, but i'm also recovering actuary of all things So a mathematician and statistician by training but a professional speaker by passion and what I do today

Mehmet: Very beautiful.

Mehmet: You know, I'm very excited for this chat today with you, Andrew, and, uh, I'm sure like it will be a very rich conversation, especially with the expertise that you have. Now, the way I love to do it is To start, you know, with, with why you picked up, you know, something which is honestly speaking, Andrew, um, when we talk about anything related to our, we can call it skills.

Mehmet: Some people, I like, you call it like art also as well of entrepreneur selling and so on [00:03:00] and the habits at work. All these things, you know, to some people, like this is something tough, you know, because people usually they think they know it all. They don't like, you know, people to tell them how to do things.

Mehmet: So, but I'm sure like there's something that attracted you to be in this domain. So tell me a little bit more about this. Like why exactly this domain?

Andrew: That's a great question. And maybe the most honest answer is I woke up one day and noticed That I was walking through life as a know it all meaning, you know, I had advanced degrees and professional Certifications and I prided myself on reading all the books and doing lots of research.

Andrew: I started a behavioral research lab and At some point I realized that sometimes having all the answers Isn't the best answer if it's not matched with the embodied skills of how you ask other people [00:04:00] questions and how you present yourself and how you share what you know in a story so people can understand it and care to listen to it.

Andrew: And most importantly, how you listen with your heart. So that people feel like they've gotten the opportunity to share what they know, instead of just have you tell them everything, you know, and you know, that obviously brought me into the wonderful world of sales because in sales, we feel like our job is to be the expert and tell our customers everything they need to know and to be the person with all the answers.

Andrew: And what I've learned over my career is the best leaders. The best salespeople and for my taste, the most interesting people are the ones who seek first to understand who are curious and who follow that favorite saying of mine in their quest to be magnetic or charismatic or charming, to be interesting, be interested.

Andrew: And so I became interested in the beautiful [00:05:00] art of what it means to be a magnetic. trusted human being.

Mehmet: That's fantastic. And you know, this is, will bring me to, to the question that actually I prepared to ask you now, we know for a fact, and, um, you know, just something that's happened with me, uh, just happened to me today itself.

Mehmet: You know, speaking, I come from a technical background, right? But I shifted more into Slack. business side, sales side. And on multiple occasions, I speak and say, no, no, no, no. You're the sales guy, right? I need the technical guy to speak to me. Now I'm saying, listen, like I'm, I'm really technical. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just telling you like I'm technical.

Mehmet: I'm not talking sales to you, but, and I think you identified this trust problem when it comes to sales, um, Andrew. So what do you think is the root causes of this issue? And, you know, why people, they think it's the least trustworthy [00:06:00] professions, as you say, so curious, curious about your point of view on this.

Andrew: Okay, you'll tell from my answer, I'm passionate about the subject and one of my life purposes is to turn the sales profession Into the most trustworthy profession. We're currently the least trustworthy. So I got my work cut out for me, but you asked the question, like, why is that the case? And it is the case in every survey that I've looked at around the world.

Andrew: It says we trust people in the street, maybe five out of 10. We trust salespeople two out of 10. And I think the answer is relevant to all of us, whether or not we're in sales. I think the answer is everyone knows or suspects that salespeople are paid commission and they assume that they have a self interest more than they have my interest at heart.

Andrew: And so I think [00:07:00] the first answer is there's a structural problem in our industry. Since commission is the way that we get paid as salespeople and everyone knows that my assumption as a customer is you're only doing this for the commission. I think there's a second reason, which is frankly, many salespeople, not all, maybe not even the majority have behaved in less than trustworthy ways.

Andrew: You know, the traditional secondhand car salesperson is not the only salesperson who's been pushy to meet a quarter end target or who has exaggerated claims or maybe left some information out because it was a little worrying or may have slowed down the sales. So we've certainly not helped ourselves.

Andrew: Um, and I said, in my view, this is relevant to all of us. Because if you're not a salesperson, you're a technician like you and I certainly are, and you say, I'm so glad I don't have that trust problem of a [00:08:00] salesperson. I would say this problem exists for leaders, for consultants. For founders, for parents, for anyone who's in the business of trying to get someone else to behave differently in sales.

Andrew: That means buying something they weren't going to buy or buying from you versus buying from someone else. But as soon as you are in the human behavior change business, someone will suspect you've got a motive and they won't judge that motive as positive unless you do something very different. So yeah, we got trust issues, but the good news is there's lots we can do about it.

Mehmet: Cool. And just that, like Two cents from my side funny enough and I tell people this all the time like every one of us Two sales in a way or another, not only in the professional life, even outside as well. And I say, you know, when you go out and ask, you know, your friend, have you tried like this restaurant?

Mehmet: They are doing fantastic [00:09:00] food over there. So we are selling actually, right? So you're just convincing someone. But I think, you know, when it comes to You know, adding a value, putting the money and the commission that you just mentioned, uh, Andrew, I think, yeah. So this is where, where, where things, uh, get ugly, as they say.

Mehmet: And, you know, like the, the famous example of the second hand car, uh, salesman. So you said like, we can fix this. How?

Andrew: Well, I'll tell you how I came to the realization and it was, I had a really interesting day several years back. Because I have a portfolio career, I show up with different hats on. And I had a day where I couldn't have been treated more differently in five different circumstances where the same human being showed up.

Andrew: But I started the day leading a yoga class and people related to me like they might a yoga teacher, like, you know, thanks. That was nice. But I wouldn't say an enormous amount of trust, [00:10:00] but some given because I was caring for their health. And then I went to a sales meeting and I got given a really hard time.

Andrew: And I could just see the customer didn't like me walking in and had bad experience of a sales people assumed I was one of those and just didn't want to hear from me. And then I went and taught a class at Kellogg where I have the privilege of being a professor and all the respect and implied trust that comes with that.

Andrew: And then I went into lead a session for second day or serene. And there is a very intimate setting where people are putting their lives in our hands and that trust is off the charts. And so I just got to see firsthand, like, wow, I have been. The same human all day, but judged completely differently because of what people assume I'm there to do and why I'm doing it.

Andrew: And so it struck me, you know, in the milliseconds to minutes when people judge [00:11:00] you and we all judge each other, it's human to do it. In fact, It's safe and effective to do it because you have to get a read on people really quickly. And we pride ourselves on being good at judging people's character and we are good at it.

Andrew: But the question is like, how do we make those judgments? And the confronting answer is we often use false signals. Does someone look like me? Do they remind me of someone I trust? Do they look shifty? Do they present themselves well? And so I dug into the research on trust and what I discovered is you've got about three minutes to make a fantastic first impression.

Andrew: That becomes a lasting impression. And if you blow that opportunity, it may take months to restore it. You know, there's that old saying that salespeople love to tell ourselves, which is trust takes time to build. And we've all experienced that and we believe it to be true, but the research doesn't support it.[00:12:00]

Andrew: And how do we resolve that apparent conflict between like You know, I've been a salesperson. Trust me, it took months to build trust. And here I'm coming along saying this can be done in minutes. And the resolution is I realized that for 25 years, when I had been taking time to build trust, what I was actually doing was clawing my way out of a trust hole.

Andrew: That I put myself in without even realizing it by identifying myself as a salesperson, part of the least trustworthy profession on the planet by reputation, and not addressing the elephant in the room, which is my customer assumes I have bad intentions or self interested money driven intentions. So I could do something about that.

Andrew: How? By introducing myself in a way that shares a story. That shows rather than tells people why I do what I do [00:13:00] so that customers have an alternative answer for the question, who are you and what do you want instead of them in a vacuum of an answer providing their own answer, which is you're a salesperson who wants commission.

Andrew: I could say something like, my name is Andrew and I spent two decades as an entrepreneur before I realized that nothing works without trust. And so I set up Habits at Work where today I get to help salespeople become the most trustworthy humans in every room.

Mehmet: It's just changing the perspective, Andrew, like looks to me, because You know, and something, you know, I'm big believer in is like the first impression is very important.

Mehmet: Um, and you know, just like quick question, you know, it's not like a question that I prepared, but it popped up in my head. Do you think like sometimes a mistake that people do? I mean, people who works in [00:14:00] sales, they want to show themselves, you know, We are important people. Like we're coming from X company or Y company and see like, I am the sales rep for blah, blah, blah.

Mehmet: So of course I'm not saying this is wrong. It's, it's, everyone should be proud of the thing that they do, but they go and use a body language or maybe they use a some wordings that Trigger an alarm in, in, in the customer mind. Like, is this what, what we're talking about here, Andrew, right?

Andrew: Yeah. So some people call it this throw up and show up and throw up problem, which is, we're so anxious to have customers trust us that the mistake we made is assuming that they will trust us if we show them how smart we are.

Andrew: And so let me tell you about my company and my product and my background and my credentials and my degrees and all of these things. And in most cases, if people hear all of [00:15:00] that coming from a salesperson with this reputation that maybe you haven't deserved the person before you created the problem for you.

Andrew: But if you have this. reputation on your back and you show up with this, what will now be interpreted as an arrogant expression of competence. I think you're just digging yourself a hole. So, you know, in a, in a perfect world, salespeople would be judged like every other human, maybe even Like doctors and nurses who are given wonderful amounts of trust because we assume that they do what they do because they really care about us and our health and our livelihood.

Andrew: You know, I define selling as the beautiful opportunity to help other human beings make progress in their life. And for me, that's honorable and deserving of trust. It's just not the world we live in though, that we're given that trust. And so we have to earn it. And the way we get to earn it is by showing people we're not [00:16:00] salespeople that you can't trust.

Andrew: We're humans, passion and purpose who care about serving you as a customer and who are also okay to move on from this opportunity if we're not a great fit. You know, we're committed to helping you but not attached to helping you. It's none of that pushiness necessary because selling is a, is a gift. Like my job there is to help you make progress, to figure something out.

Andrew: Why wouldn't you want the help from someone that you like and trust? The problem is, you know, we have to earn that like and trust. And the way to do it is not to lead with look how smart and great I am and my company and my product way to start with it is recognizing the very first question people are asking is a question about sincerity and the best way to demonstrate sincerity.

Andrew: Is to ask them about them and to learn about them as a human Like if you can't take the time to learn about me as a customer I'm, [00:17:00] certainly not convinced you're going to take the time to design the product to my specs to make sure it works to do all of those things. This is an obvious early signal.

Andrew: This relationship won't go well. A

Mehmet: hundred percent. And again, like this is the same thing I always mention. Um, and by the way, it starts, you know, even before the first, let's say physical meeting, it starts even when we start to call them or email them. So we need, we need, we need like to be, I call it empathy.

Mehmet: I'm not sure, like, uh, if this is the right, uh, you know, approach to do it. And this is why I want to understand from you more, Andrew, about, like, the habits at work. Right. So, so I'm sure, like, it's, it's something that also, it's a loaded question, I know, but first. Do we start from the leaders and then we go to the, to the, to the sales reps?

Mehmet: And the other thing is like, where, what we, where we start exactly. Is it in the mindset? Is it in the skills? Is it like with the daily habits we do every day where we start? [00:18:00]

Andrew: My view is everything starts with mindsets and it proceeds from mindsets to skill development through practice with a coach who can give you great feedback.

Andrew: And it ends with turning those skills into habits. And the reason I say it starts with mindsets is mindsets are for me defined as the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves that either open us up to perform in a certain way or close us down. My favorite example is I asked people in the class I teach who can sing and no one puts up their hand, maybe one or two people because they heard me ask who can sing well, but I didn't ask that question.

Andrew: I asked just who can sing. And it's a reminder that so much of what we tell ourselves, we've been telling ourselves since we were five years old. You know, when I was a kid, I used to sing grease lightning. I loved that movie and I used to sing it with abandon. And then my older brother laughed at me one [00:19:00] day and I decided that day, I can't sing well yet.

Andrew: The next day I dropped the yet the next day I dropped the well, and I've been saying, I can't sing for years, but it's not true. Or maybe It's a self fulfilling prophecy because if you tell yourself you can't do something, you certainly won't do it. So if you just change your mindset from I'm not good at mathematics, I'm not good at sales.

Andrew: Sales is, you know, slimy too. I'm not good at mathematics or singing or sales yet, but I could be tomorrow or sales is an honorable opportunity to help someone make progress in their life. Or even when it comes to the skills themselves, there's a mindset shift. For example, in listening, most people listen for an opportunity for a gap.

Andrew: If there are other focused for the chance to fix a problem, but the best listeners start with the mindset. My [00:20:00] job when listening is to listen, to feel, I have one job to hear what you say, to pay attention to how you feel and what really matters to you so that I can feel what you feel. Cause what I've discovered as a leader and as a salesperson, if you're convinced that I feel what you feel, then you feel safe to tell me what's going on in your life and your business.

Andrew: Because you know, I can be trusted with that because I was vulnerable enough to be in it with you rather than just interrogate you like many salespeople do. Like what's your problem? And if you don't have one, I'll give you one. And if it's not painful, I'll make it painful until there's a pain to sell into.

Andrew: I don't believe to selling into pain. I believe selling into progress.

Mehmet: Absolutely. You know, and I read it in a book, you know, when they say we, this is what they say in the book, we train people to ask questions and we train them about this open ended question [00:21:00] thing. So to discover the problems. And the thing is, you know, human beings are smart by nature.

Mehmet: So the thing is, because the title, because you know, all that you mentioned, Andrew, about this, perception of the sales guy. So he knows that actually this guy is coming to ask me questions and you know, like he gonna try to sneak in without showing or mentioning his product or whatever, uncover these problems.

Mehmet: And because you know, the, the buyer knows this. So what happens, this conversation became like a robotic conversation. Right. And to your point, I hundred percent agree with you. Um, yeah. if, if we understand that this guy is smart, that we're going to talk to. So the first thing we need to do to your point, like we need, we need to make it like really genuine conversation and ask them like, how have you been doing?

Mehmet: You know, are you okay? And not, you know, like trying to synthetically create the problem, as you said, [00:22:00] or trying to, you know, put pressure on them to tell us, Oh yeah, you know what? Yes, I have this problem. And then, Oh, I have the solution for you because we, this is not the way to do it, but. Just, it came to my mind.

Mehmet: Do you think Andrew, we should, okay, we're going to sell at the end of the day, but do you think like we should change the titles of the people who goes and talk to the customers?

Andrew: I don't. And here's why I think when you show up to a customer as a business development executive or some other title that everyone knows is a sales position, it just looks like you're trying to hide the fact that you're in sales.

Andrew: And as someone who is very proudly a sales person, I would say. Own up to being a salesperson, recognize that you've got a trust problem, but also a trust opportunity because winning in sales, and it is a game to be won, and the game I'm [00:23:00] playing is, can I win the game of earning the right to help another human being when other people are vying for that same opportunity?

Andrew: So is there competition? Sure. And do I hate losing? Absolutely. I don't mind losing to someone if they're going to serve my customer or prospect better than me. Good luck, please do. But I think there is a competitive element to that that we need to be both aware of and careful of. But here's why I think it matters.

Andrew: If you think of this as a competitive game, then it will occur to you to succeed means to stand apart from every other salesperson who's got this terrible reputation. So rather than trying to pretend you're not one, I would rather say I'm a very proud salesperson. And here's why I believe sales is an opportunity to help someone.

Andrew: I understand it comes with a reputation problem. I'm committed to being the most trustworthy salesperson you've ever met. And I'm prepared to make and be held to [00:24:00] account on the promises that you can count on. I won't make big promises to start with because we've only just met. I'm going to take the time and effort to make small promises, deliver on them, build a track record with you, reveal my character to you, ask questions of you so you can guide me in how to be the best partner to you.

Andrew: And if you don't want someone who is prepared to like do all of that to earn your business, you just want someone to take your order. It was never a sales opportunity anyway. I'm just in the way. So let me introduce you to my order taker. And we'll, you know, get out of your hair. Otherwise you're in for a very different ride or you can go and work with all the other salespeople, your choice.

Andrew: And you see here's the beauty of that is a couple of years ago, I got to do a Ted talk and I was super excited because. The Ted X talk is what's [00:25:00] your one big idea. And so I thought the problem would be deciding amongst the 30 big ideas that I have two months into it. I'm sitting in my room like depressed out of my head because I realized I don't have a single big idea that isn't derived from someone else's research.

Andrew: Inspired by someone else's book or podcast or something else. And that was really confronting for me. And it got me into this inquiry. How much do I actually know? And how much of what I know did I learn firsthand? You know, if you imagine a pie graph and inside that pie is the billions of pieces of information, you know, every fact and figure, every technical point, every piece of knowledge you have, what percentage of that, what slice represents knowledge you got firsthand.

Andrew: For example, [00:26:00] I believe climate trade change is true. But I didn't go to the North Pole and drill the ice cores and do the analysis. I read it in a book and I believed someone who told me that's the case. In this case, you know, scientists with some credibility. And when I got to the bottom of this inquiry, I came to this conclusion, at least in my case, some very tiny percentage, like 0.

Andrew: 0001 percent of all the things I know. Many are probably wrong, but even the ones that are right, I learned from someone else. And so I discovered this rule, which is that first humans decide whom to trust, and that determines what we believe from religion to politics, to climate change, to sales, to is this product worth buying?

Andrew: And so we really have only one important job in sales, which is to earn someone's belief in us, trust in [00:27:00] us. So that they'll believe what we say you do that. Everything else is kind of easy, which is why I make the claim that 90 percent of the sale is over in the first hour. What I call the golden hour of meeting someone.

Andrew: And in that golden hour, 90 percent of the magic happens in the first five minutes. The platinum five minutes when someone decides is Mehmet someone I can believe yes or no, if yes, I'll answer his questions. I'll give more than one word answers. I won't protect my information. I'll reveal myself slowly over time, but I'll do it.

Andrew: And if the answer is no, I may go through the motions, answer your questions only so I can get a quote, but I'm not really. On your side in trying to solve my problem. I'm sort of Protecting myself from the risk that you're going to sell me something Versus help me something help me [00:28:00] with something that makes sense.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Absolutely You know, especially the last part you mentioned. This is really it touches You know, I think that the the the the issue on on 100 percent I would say now Here, I want a little bit to get your opinion about something, which you mentioned. And you said like when you go in and you start, instead of going immediately asking the questions in a very robotic way, or instead of, you know, showing and do this throw up thing.

Mehmet: So the other method could be storytelling, right? And personally I believe in storytelling, not only for sales, by the way, I believe like storytelling is something important, and even. You know, when I'm trying to, if I'm a founder, let's say I'm not selling yet. Maybe I'm just convincing some team members to join me and tell them, Hey guys, like I'm [00:29:00] on to the next big thing.

Mehmet: And I want you to be with me, part of the team, or maybe a founder looking for the first adopters, right? He's selling or she's selling. So, but they, I believe like if they do it, or maybe they are raising funds also by the way. So this is another way it's, it's also selling. So how important here, Andrew, is the storytelling and from your experience, just let me ask you this, like storytelling.

Mehmet: Is it something that it's like it's a gift? Is it like a or is it a skill that I can go and learn about it? Because I believe if I tell the story in the right way, You know, many things can change. So, so what you can tell me about storytelling, it's importance. And can I have it, uh, you know, if, if I don't have it by nature, can I go and, and, you know, do something to, to get it?

Andrew: Yes. Well, I would say if, if you summarized selling in its [00:30:00] most beautiful form, there really are only three things that it's comprised of. One is the ability to earn someone's trust by being trustworthy and by designing your first impression to appear trustworthy. That's number one. And if you, if you blow that, you know, whatever story you tell, no one's going to believe anyway.

Andrew: The second thing I'd say, the second foundation of selling is the way that you ask questions and listen with your heart or listen empathically and, you know, open ended questions that you think you're asking that feel like. Leading questions to a customer. Are not the gold standard in question. So lots more to say about that.

Andrew: But the third pillar is storytelling. And here's why. And I often say this to technical salespeople or SMEs, you know, product experts that are brought in. Do you like someone telling you what to do? And I've never met someone who's [00:31:00] like, yeah, I really like that. It's my best thing ever. Everyone's like, no, of course not.

Andrew: I like to make my own decisions. And my next question is, well, then why does it occur to you that the best way to help a customer is to tell them what to do? When you hate it, surely you know that they hate it. So I get some nods and the question comes up, well, what's the alternative? And the alternative is to allow them to see for themselves what they can do.

Andrew: And the best way to do that is to show them or allow them to see for themselves in the story of somebody else who had a problem like theirs, who had opportunities like theirs, who had goals like theirs. Who took a bunch of steps and achieve the outcome they were going for. And in the process, if you tell stories, well, I've discovered that people will leave the experience.

Andrew: They'll take your story with them as their story. They'll probably share it to [00:32:00] other people and they'll become invested in the thing, which is magical almost. So there's a, there's a conflict between the way we make decisions and the way we think we make decisions. Because the next conversation I have with sales leaders is what would it take to change your mind about something you really believe in?

Andrew: Strongly climate change, politics, religion, and everyone's answering. I need evidence and research and facts and figures. And then I asked him, you know, if I brought these facts and figures, would you believe them? And most people are like, well, no, cause nothing would change my mind in this really strongly held area.

Andrew: And the same is true for customers. They have really strong opinions and they believe them strongly. And you're trying to change their minds with facts and figures. All the research suggests facts and figures are experienced as an attack on your ego. If they're different from what you [00:33:00] believe. So you believe X and I'm trying to convince you of Y.

Andrew: And I say, here's the data and here's the facts and here's the research. And I know you're an open minded human, but as soon as we get this feeling like someone's trying to change my mind, it feels like an attack. Horses, uh, stories are like the Trojan horse presented at the gates to the castle of someone's mind.

Andrew: We'd love stories. We let them in. And if you tell a story well, and it's got like the Trojan horse, the soldiers inside. a good story has the facts and figures inside of it. And so it is true that humans need research and facts and figures to change their mind. Customers do too, but they're only open to it if they're packaged in a beautiful, easy to consume, entertaining way stories.

Andrew: So I believe storytelling is the critical skill for a salesperson and at least this person is a one [00:34:00] person data point that proves the case that storytelling can be learned. It's not natural because I certainly didn't have the skill when I started out and I teach it today. And so I see people's skills go from terrible to extraordinary in not too much time at all.

Andrew: The good news is it's an easy to acquire skill, but like all skills, the more you practice, the more you go from okay to good to extraordinary to just tell me more.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Um, on, on that point, Andrew, and maybe I'm just repeating because I think this is very important point that what you mentioned, it's about, you know, uh, people needs facts to change their mind.

Mehmet: And there is also something which I noticed, of course, I noticed after I did a bunch of mistakes, uh, when I started to do this. So, you know, there's also in addition to this, that they need the facts. There is [00:35:00] the ego. Let's say, and I'm talking in the tech space. So let's say I bought this pen, right? This is a technology that I bought it as customer.

Mehmet: So at that time I did my research and, you know, I was proud that, you know, I introduced this pen to my organization that saved me. X amount of money or to increase the efficiency and so on and so forth. Now, when someone is coming and telling me, Hey, you know what? Like this, using the span is the most dumb thing ever you can do because you know, this pen, it's a legacy pen.

Mehmet: It's not like edge technology, blah, blah, blah. And you know, I put myself and I tell like sometimes some of my friends, I said, guys, when you go and you know, you start attacking the incumbent. And saying it's old and this is why you need the the the change actually you are not targeting the incumbent You're targeting the customer himself or herself

Andrew: Such a great point.

Andrew: Absolutely. You're you're insulting their intelligence as if they didn't spend time and effort and [00:36:00] thought Making that choice and may they have made the wrong choice. Sure. And if they realize it, do you think they feel great about it? I doubt it. So they certainly don't need you sort of rubbing salt in the wound about the mistake they made.

Andrew: I need you to have empathy and to acknowledge that they made the best decision that they could have at the time and things change. And so maybe that decision is no longer the right decision, but saying it was the wrong decision. It's not going to get you a lot of, um, credits with a customer.

Mehmet: Yeah. So, so what I was trying to say to relating to, to your point, Andrew, about storytelling.

Mehmet: So the way to do this is say, Hey, I know someone who fantastically like choose, you know, the same technology and they were happy, you know, and you're like, you just, it's like, just. The way you presented, I think it's storytelling. It's also about presenting a situation in a way that is authentic as well.

Mehmet: So and this is why I wanted to do this [00:37:00] relation, Andrew. How important is in the whole this process that you talked about to be authentic? I mean, to be ourself, not to be pretending to be someone else. You know, I want to hear your opinion on that.

Andrew: Okay. I have a different opinion. I think from what you may have heard, which is that it is impossible for a human being to be inauthentic because whatever you do is you doing it.

Andrew: So the question for me, isn't so much authenticity or not. It's. underlying intention. So if your intention is to lie to someone, you know, is that inauthentic? No, that's an authentic action. It's just not a nice one. It's got consequences. It's, you know, downright mean, if not illegal. And so I would not be too worried about whether or not it's authentic and more worried about what is your intention?

Andrew: And then can you demonstrate your intention? So [00:38:00] it's palpable rather than assumed because it left to our own devices. We will assume bad intentions in other people as a default. You have to be very self aware and generous to assume good intention, especially from salespeople. So don't make your customer do that.

Andrew: Show them through your behavior, allow them to see through your storytelling, what your intentions are and how you intend to deliver on those. And how they can expect you to behave. And so I think, uh, authenticity gets a lot of attention. It's a little bit like acting for me. You know, if you've ever seen a bad actor, how do you know they're a bad actor?

Andrew: Cause they're pretending to be something rather than just being that way. The world's best actors literally embody that role. And so I would say if there is a version of authenticity that speaks to me, it is, can you actually be. A [00:39:00] magnetic, caring, interested, grateful salesperson. And if you do that, people will judge you as authentic.

Andrew: And if they don't, you know, you can't win every battle. One of the things I say about trying to develop the skills of being magnetic is remember magnets have two poles. And as much as you may be attractive to some people, you'll be repulsive to others. If you do it right, the people that aren't a fit for you and your company.

Andrew: won't like you and will, you know, not want to deal with you, but the people who are a fit will love your, your stuff, your stories, your approach.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Absolutely. Andrew. I like this, you know, this, uh, two sides of the, of the magnet, you know, like You need to define we need to define also which side we are so so we can attract what we want to attract and we Need to pull whoever is not fit for us um Yeah We talked a lot about you know, and I know like you have a a course about it entrepreneurial selling, uh [00:40:00] andrew so Why you call why we call it entrepreneurial selling like is it because when and when we are an entrepreneur So we are by ourself and we need to do the whole thing by by ourselves or is it entrepreneurial in a sense that?

Mehmet: You know, it's like about keep trying not giving up from the first time or maybe we should say like because we need to try To find different ways to get into the heart of the customer when we sell him or her Because entrepreneurship is also about pivoting. So why it's called entrepreneur selling i'm very interested to know

Andrew: all of that You nailed it and you know The the course is designed for people who are wanting to start a business and they have this problem They don't have any customers So they don't have any references.

Andrew: Their brand has no brand awareness and so no communal trust yet. They may not even have built the first product, or maybe they've got a prototype and it's, you know, not quite there. [00:41:00] So you've got none of those usual assets that an enterprise salesperson has behind them of. Case studies and testimonials and track record on a 50 year brand awareness.

Andrew: Uh, legacy. So how do you as a founder find your first customers and convince them that they should buy your to be built product or almost built product? And be the first person to do that. How do you get someone to do that? Which is actually an enormous risk for them to take. And the same with an investor.

Andrew: How do you get an investor to put money in your business when maybe you've got a couple of customers, a little bit of a track record, and it's not certain that you're going to be a surviving company at all. That is a profound act of influence and trust building. So it's designed for people who want to do that.

Andrew: However, to your point, it's also a mindset because for me being entrepreneurial is looking at what's around you and what's [00:42:00] close and asking the question, how can I use this contact, this opportunity, this skill, this advantage to serve my customer. And so for enterprise sellers, people who are representing big companies, they attend because if you can sell for IBM or Google or one of these big companies.

Andrew: And you have the skills of an entrepreneurial seller, you're unbeatable. But if you can only sell for big companies and then you start your own business and you don't know how to hustle when you've got none of the advantages of a big business, you might be one of those founders who's in and out in a year and back to corporate life.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Absolutely. One thing you mentioned in your introduction and we, you kept talking about the leaders, Andrew. So tell me more about this. program you just mentioned in your introduction. I'm pretty sure that because, you know, any change [00:43:00] we want to do, whether it's like habit at work, entrepreneurial selling.

Mehmet: So, so we need to get the, a, a, a major change in, in the way we look at leadership, we need to do a change in the way, you know, how we used to do things and getting into a, a, a next level, or maybe, you know, To your point, you just mentioned about the career thing also as well. So I'm interested to know more about that actually.

Andrew: Okay. Well, two ways in the first is, and I'm not sure all of my academic colleagues would agree with this view. So this is my view that to lead is to sell. It's the same set of skills applied to a different audience. When you're selling, you're helping a group of customers make progress in their life towards a vision that they have.

Andrew: When you're leading, you're helping a group of employees make progress in their lives. Towards a vision that you share, but the skills [00:44:00] of storytelling, listening with empathy, asking questions, running effective meetings, setting a vision, building trust. It's mostly the same fabric from which they're built.

Andrew: So the question that I got really interested in when we set up our behavioral research lab is how might a human being, whether you're a salesperson or a leader or a technologist trying to influence someone, how do you get that information? Not only good at these skills, but world class. And I remember reading Malcolm Gladwell's book about outliers and his 10, 000 hour rule.

Andrew: And my prevailing thought was, I don't have enough lifetime left to spend 10, 000 hours on many different things. And I want to be good at many, what might the shortcut be? And serene, serene, always we pronounce it in Europe, Serenae, Is an executive experience business born out of that question. And so we lead these eight day experiences where we bring to life [00:45:00] for people, a curriculum called the magic eight for getting great.

Andrew: It's the recipe for becoming so good at something in so short a time that you look in the mirror sort of three months later and you say to yourself, met, met. I know you, I look the same. But in some material way, I've gone from not skill at all or pretty good to world class. And in that sense, I'm unrecognizable to myself.

Andrew: There's one other way to think about it is I don't know about you, but I'm sick of the self help industry telling me that can help me be the best version of myself. I meet so many people who are extraordinary versions of themselves. Like you, I trust. If you think there's a gap, you can close that gap on your own.

Andrew: You don't need me for that. But what I discovered is none of us can unlock the greatness in us that hides behind our blind spots. On our own, because they're [00:46:00] our blind spots. We need other people to see them. And so these small group executive retreats help people see what they can't see in themselves.

Andrew: And through the process of the magic eight, unlock things that they just, you know, maybe never thought was possible for their lives. So it's an answer to the question, what else can you get done in life? And are you curious whom else you might become? I didn't mean to drop that at the end. Sorry, it wasn't an artificial backdrop.

Mehmet: No, no, that's fine. You know, it came on time. So just, you know, one thing you mentioned and, uh, of course, like for me, like it was always a transformative journey. And I, you know, the question I ask myself all the time is first two things. Am I doing the right thing to reach, you know, the whatever goals purpose I have put to myself.

Mehmet: The second thing is, [00:47:00] okay, to whom I can talk or to whom I can reach out to show me these blind spots, as you mentioned them, Andrew. And you know, like this, I call it the itch to, to always, you know, be the better version of yourself. So this is for me, it's something that I installed it. And to your point, like some of the traditional ways, they, of course, they tell you about the thing that between you and me, all of us, we know it, but you need, you need this push or you need this third person to come in and Not your close friend, not someone from, from, from your family to come and tell you, you know, I want to give you a honest opinion.

Mehmet: I think you should do this. Or you know what, like when you talk, I think you can enhance that. Or you know what, when you record the podcast, we think like you should do this, right? Is that okay? Let me accept it. People, this is what, because this is, this is how people looks at me. So I like the concept and it looks like [00:48:00] something, you know, fantastic to do.

Mehmet: And they, a, an experience that really, uh, anyone I would believe, especially maybe leaders, uh, to your point, because they, they are sellers. You're right. They, they, he, they, they need, they need to sell their ideas and their beliefs and their purpose. I mean that their purpose, what they are aiming after as a purpose.

Mehmet: To the people who they want them to follow. So a hundred percent on this Andrew.

Andrew: And we do have some sales people attend, but it is mostly leaders who are asking themselves, like, what else can I get done in my career and how can I leapfrog my performance? Because. They're usually very accomplished people who attend these things.

Andrew: But the other inside is, you know, this August we running one and the focus is of course, always our magic eight. How do you get good at getting great at literally anything in record time, but we apply it to this golden hour set of skills. So imagine spending eight days. On learning how to get good at any [00:49:00] skill, but then applying it to how to completely own every room you're in, whether you're sitting next to someone at a conference or next to them on an airplane, or you're presenting on a stage, or you're in a sales meeting, or you're leading an executive meeting, how do you design who you are and how you behave?

Andrew: So every person in that room goes home that night and says, you know, I met Mehmet today, or I was in a meeting with him. And it was just a gift. Change my life. It was awesome. Beautiful experience. Love the guy. And I believe that that is not born in charisma. It's built in magnetism. It's a set of skills, not a set of lucky things that you have or you don't have.

Mehmet: Love this. Love this Andrew. 100%. I agree with you on this. And, you know, this is one of the things I love about doing the podcast is, you know, talking to someone like you, Andrew, who has this [00:50:00] positive energy about, you know, the power that we can, and you talked about the mindset. Uh, you know many times today on the show so really really powerful message over here Andrew as you come almost to an end of of this episode today Final words you want to share with the audience anything, you know Maybe I I needed to ask you and I didn't so feel free.

Mehmet: This is a space for you now And also feel free to tell us where people can connect with you and get to know more about You know all the nice and brilliant things that you do

Andrew: Okay. One. Thank you for that opportunity. Let me answer them in reverse order. Sure. I'd

Mehmet: love

Andrew: people to connect with me on LinkedIn and they can find me by, you know, searching Andrew Sykes and habits at work or Kellogg.

Andrew: And I'll come up on LinkedIn. Uh, my professional speaking site is Andrew Sykes, just my name spelled out. com habits at work. The same thing habits at [00:51:00] work. com is our sales and leadership skills development business. And Serene is C E R E N E dot life. That's the executive experience business. That's transformational.

Andrew: And I think the message I'd like to leave is the thought that occurred to me as you were ending. I think the high level conversation we've been having is what does it take for one human to be able to use their voice through storytelling and through conversation to create a future that they and their customers love.

Andrew: And I think that's what sales is. It is the physics of how you turn your voice into your reality. Like every beautiful thing that's ever been built in this world. And the not so beautiful things to began as an idea, became a conversation, inspired people, and they went and built a bridge or [00:52:00] democracy or an amazing company from the ground up.

Andrew: So I think the message I'd like to leave people with is your voice is an instrument. Of future creation use it wisely

Mehmet: great. What very powerful very very powerful and thank you for sharing this and This is for the audience the links that andrew just mentioned. Don't worry. You will find them in the show notes.

Mehmet: So Uh every single site and andrew's linked profile You can find them in the show notes if you're listening to this on any podcasting platform of your choice You will find them there. If you're watching this on YouTube, also you'll find them in the description. Andrew, again, you know, I can't thank you enough for this wonderful conversation today and this powerful messages.

Mehmet: Uh, I, I love, you know, when my guests leave these very powerful ending messages, which keep us reflecting, you know, on why we do the things we do. So thank you again. And this [00:53:00] is, you know, the way I end my episodes. This is for the audience. If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by.

Mehmet: I hope you enjoyed it. And I'm sure you did. And if so, please subscribe and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues. And if you are one of the people who keep coming, send me their suggestions, feedbacks, and so on. I read them all. Please Send me whatever comes to your mind, a suggestion, a comment, something I can even maybe fix in the podcast.

Mehmet: I would love to hear that from you. And as I say, always, thank you for tuning in. We'll be again very soon. Thank you. Bye bye.