#378 Venture-Driven Growth: Danny Nathan on Innovating for the Future, Today

[00:00:00]

Mehmet: Hello, and welcome back to a new episode of the City of Show with Mehmet. Today, I'm very pleased joining me, Danny Nathan. Danny, the way I love to do it is I to keep it to my guests to introduce themselves. So tell us a little bit more about you, about your background and what you are currently up to. So the [00:01:00] floor is yours.

Danny: Yeah. Thanks for having me. First off. Um, I'm Danny. I run a company called Apollo 21 that basically sits at the intersection of an innovation consultancy and a product design studio. So we help, uh, anybody from series a or later companies or companies that have been around for a while and are looking for new opportunities in technology and innovation to ideate and build new products to understand.

Danny: What innovation really means and how to move beyond the idea of innovation theater and talking about innovation and really helping companies understand the um the metrics and the operational and cultural impacts of A commitment to the idea of innovation and longevity for their company

Mehmet: cool. And again, thank you for being with me here today.

Mehmet: Danny now Maybe it's a travel question, but You know, why did you choose to focus on something which people might think? You Okay, these guys they've been around for some time. They [00:02:00] are like on a series they were above so why why you choose to be in that spot? You know, uh, and not for example being on innovation with like new founders So what attracted you to be with these kinds of companies, which is the reason i'm asking danny because these guys They think that maybe they have done their job.

Mehmet: They are You know, they, they are more, more like hard to convince. So I would like to hear your, your, uh, point of view on that.

Danny: Yeah, absolutely. There's a, there's a couple of things that come into play there. Um, so a lot of the work that we do with growth stage companies. So think series a series B is focused on the operational side of things and helping them move.

Danny: Really beyond doing things that don't scale. So, you know, we all know the old adage of when you're an early stage startup, you should focus on doing things that don't scale. And then eventually, as you begin to find product market fit, and your company begins to find some stability, you end up in a world where doing things that don't scale.

Danny: don't [00:03:00] scale, doesn't scale, which becomes a problem. And so for that type and size of company, a lot of our efforts come in around helping them think through the, um, opportunities to operationalize the practices that they've been exploring and testing and figuring out kind of what works for them. And then on the more established company side, you know, a lot of folks talk about innovation.

Danny: They believe in innovation. They tell their customers and the markets in general, that they are. focused on innovation. But when you really dig into the activities and the metrics that they're using to run their business, what we find is that, um, it's a lot of talk and not quite so much action. And so eventually, I think, um, You know, folks in a leadership position in those types of companies often know that they're doing a lot of talking and perhaps not as much support through action as they could be.

Danny: And so that's where we get called in to help them think about, you know, what does innovation really mean? If they're talking about [00:04:00] innovation or They're talking about the activities that they are doing to establish an innovative culture. Um, we can help them really evaluate those activities and understand how growth and scale can stem not just from finding new customers, but also creating new products to attract those new customers, finding new market opportunities, and really, um, building in that culture of.

Danny: Exploration and an entrepreneurial spirit amongst their, their team that can provide the opportunities for discovery and the opportunities to think about, okay, this is what we're doing today. How are we going to survive and thrive into the future? And what does that mean for our business? And so, I guess when push comes to shove, the answer is we like a challenge and we like helping companies that are at that inflection point where they're going, Oh, we need something new.

Mehmet: Cool. I love this Danny. And you know, I'm, I'm currently reading, um, the book by John Chambers, [00:05:00] the ex CEO of Cisco connecting the dots. And one of the things that he talks about is like companies usually fail because they keep doing. The great thing they are. Yes. Long time. So, yes, exactly. So, so this is why innovation is really important.

Mehmet: And you know, people sometimes they think that innovation, it's only also for old established company. And they think like in the sense of a startup, which is to your point, they are on now a scale up. So they are on the you know, in the phase that they want to expand markets, expand, you know, market share in maybe other line of businesses.

Mehmet: So from your experience, Danny, what have you seen? The main challenge that they face? Is it like they run out of ideas? Is it the day as we were talking, they get stuck in the thing that they do. So they lose sight of what's going in the market. What you have seen, you know, the number one and maybe two [00:06:00] challenges they, they, they face.

Mehmet: And they lack innovation out of that.

Danny: Yeah. I mean, I think you really hit the nail on the head there. The idea is that, you know, as companies become established, as they grow up, as they figure out what works, uh, companies begin to optimize for the things that work well today. And so what you see is a huge focus on efficiency, a focus on conservation of capital, a focus on, uh, you know, Creation of shareholder value, increasing quarterly earnings every single quarter.

Danny: And all of these things are great signs of a company that is doing well, but at the same time, they are at direct odds with the idea of innovation. And the reason for that is the more you optimize your company for what's working today, the less you are giving your employees, your team, and your organization The opportunity to explore in those weird fringes where New ideas tend to be birthed.

Danny: And so if your team isn't free to experiment, if they aren't, uh, [00:07:00] frankly, free to spend some capital on weird trial and error, and that could be anything from, uh, creating new features on an existing product to creating an entirely new product or business line, or it could be something as simple as, you know, Partnership or investment opportunities and outside companies that are doing something in a space that is related to your company.

Danny: But all of these things that I'm talking about that foster innovation within organizations and really provide longevity over the longterm, um, kind of go against the metrics that a lot of, uh, growth stage companies are used to using as their North star. And so you have to be willing to. Spend a little bit now to experiment now to figure out what's going to work and what's not going to work so that much like a venture capitalist creating their own portfolio, you have a series of ideas and explorations that some will pay off, some won't, [00:08:00] but the ones that do pay off ideally will do so at such magnitude that they will offset all of the other endeavors that you're that fail.

Danny: And so to me, that's the number one thing is freeing up both the mindset and the capital to experiment at the edges so that you can continue to discover new opportunities.

Mehmet: That's fantastic. Now, someone, you know, I'm again, I don't like to say that I play the devil advocate role, but, you know, Maybe, you know, do you face this like maybe founders will come and tell you, you know, daddy, I understand what you're telling me.

Mehmet: Uh, yeah, I know like I should be, but you know, I have to also work on these metrics. We need to keep, you know, trying, we need to keep pushing before we try to start exploring this. And they will say, we don't have time. I don't have, maybe now, you know, I, I'm running out of cash probably in, in 12 months or so, you know, how I can do all this.

Mehmet: So what's your answer to [00:09:00] them, Danny?

Danny: Why are you running out of cash in 12 months? My guess is that it's because you have been highly focused on doing exactly what you've been doing. And if you're in a situation where you're going to run out of money in 12 months, I hate to break it to you. It's not working.

Danny: It might be working in the short term. It might make the next quarter or two look amazing. But when you 12 months, it doesn't matter.

Mehmet: Yeah, that's that's fantastic answer. Now. Also, you know, I want also to dive, you know, to diversify the conversation. So of course I like, I like to speak about startups, but if I want to take this with from a, Kind of a corporate perspective, right?

Mehmet: Yes. Uh, so why do you think also corporations think they need to focus their effort on, you know, kind of a venture driven growth? So if you give that example, so what's the advantages, you know, they can, you know, offer, they can get from this offer, [00:10:00] uh, related, uh, sorry, uh, compare to, to traditional growth strategies.

Danny: Absolutely. So, you know, If you look at the way corporations tend to exist today and the support that they lend towards their existing products and their existing customers, uh, in my mind, that's exactly how you end up in the wait. We have 12 months of one way, or, you know, if you're a corporation, chances are, they've got far more than 12 months, but the, uh, The issue remains the same.

Danny: If you keep doing what you're doing, eventually your opportunities are going to run out. And so the benefit of focusing on venture driven growth and innovation, especially within a large organization, is that you can diversify your holdings. You can explore new opportunities and you have So much resource at your disposal as a large corporation in terms of capital that you could potentially play with in terms of, uh, presumably a large team of people who are focused day in and day out on, [00:11:00] uh, making sure that your customers are well served and those people all have great ideas.

Danny: So the, the notion that there is a shortage of ideas, even in the corporate space, I think is a misnomer because you have. Hundreds or thousands of people in a corporation, all of whom I guarantee have great ideas about how to make, uh, things work differently or better or new opportunities that could be explored within their division of the organization.

Danny: And so the more you can free those people up and give them the permission that they need to try those things to experiment and ultimately to fail. Because that's one of the most important things that we talk to our clients about is that when you're pursuing venture driven growth, it is not a 100 percent guarantee of every single thing that you try is going to work.

Danny: And again, I liken it to kind of the venture capital perspective of instead of looking at it and going, okay, we're going to try. A hundred things with the expectation that 90 or 95 of them are going to work. You have to kind of flip that [00:12:00] on its head and go, okay, we're going to try a hundred things and 98 or 99 of them are probably going to fail, but the one or two that succeed will probably succeed with such great magnitude that it will offset all of the other experimentation.

Danny: And so the amount of learning that you gather along the way and the amount of discovery that gets baked into Running robust customer development processes to looking for opportunities to experiment to think about new business models, new revenue lines, new products that you might bring to market. Or again, as I noted, you know, as I kind of nodded to a moment ago, The opportunity to invest in other companies that are up and coming in the space all provide great opportunity for that venture driven growth angle that can provide longevity.

Danny: And so, you know, a lot of corporations will look around and go, Oh no, we have a disruptor that's nipping at our heels. We must crush them. And the reality is you don't need to crush them. Go and invest in them, help them partner with them. And then you've, uh, you've essentially [00:13:00] hedged against the future. If they fail, then they're no longer a disruptor that you have to worry about.

Danny: But if they don't fail, then you have invested in them and helped them in their growth effort. And you will see returns on their success. Plus you've already cultivated a relationship. And if you're in a position where you might want to acquire them so that their disruptive new product now becomes a part of your offering.

Danny: You're well positioned to open that conversation and to have greater insight into Where the benefit of that type of relationship or acquisition might be for your corporation

Mehmet: cool Now then if I want to little bit dive in the way You work with Let's go back to the startups and scale ups So because you you sit in a position as you when you introduced it's an intersection between consultancy venture studio right and Also, uh, you know the innovation part of it.

Mehmet: So if I come to you today [00:14:00] as You know, probably maybe I have product market fit Um, I still have, you know, kind of money in the bank and we want, and we want, you know, to start working together. So what I'm trying to understand from a founder perspective, what's my journey and, you know, where I would start and what is the end result that I will get working with Apollo 21.

Danny: Yeah, that's a great question. So the starting point depends on a couple of things. Um, folks often come to us, especially folks that are in that sort of scale up position that you're describing, uh, through a couple of doorways. So one is, uh, we have a clear cut problem or opportunity. We know that technology can solve it, but either we haven't had the time and energy to commit to finding that solution, or Or we simply don't have the expertise in house to explore that possibility and then really bring a solution to life.

Danny: So in that case, uh, we start with a discovery process that looks a lot like, um, in depth stakeholder interviews. It might include some [00:15:00] customer interviews and things like that. We might go so far as to, uh, run a design sprint or some sort of discovery driven workshop where we can take that clear cut problem, come up with solutions for it, and then zero in on.

Danny: What the, um, greatest opportunity at the least resource or capital expenditure might look like, um, the other way that folks might come to us is, Hey, we're a scale up and we know that we need to move beyond doing things that don't scale. And we want to explore where the opportunities for that are, but we don't have a specific idea or problem that we're pursuing.

Danny: And if folks come to us through that doorway, One of the first things that we lean on heavily is the customer development process. So if you don't know where to start, but you know that you're in pursuit of something new, Talk to your customers. And I, I say this and half the time people go, wait, what really?

Danny: Um, yes. Talk to your customers because they're the people who you are serving at the end of the day. They're the ones that are keeping your company alive [00:16:00] and they're the ones that can immediately tell you what's missing from your product or what are the other problems that they're encountering that might be related to or adjacent to your, area of expertise or the area of product market fit you've already discovered, and they can help guide you towards what might come next.

Danny: And so we have a very clear cut process through which we approach customer development. And it, it starts off wide, where, you know, we interview customers and really just talk to them to look for opportunities and problem spaces. And then as we begin to identify those problem areas that we're hearing often.

Danny: So, you know, by the time we hold 50 customer interviews, we've probably started to find a pattern in, Oh, we've heard this five times, and we've heard this three times, and we've heard this a few times. These are the areas of opportunity to explore. And then we can begin working with our clients to come up with potential solutions.

Danny: And even before we can Those potential [00:17:00] solutions start to look anything like what one might call an MVP, or before we start building anything, we continue that customer development process. And so the first articulation of that solution for us. Often looks like a comic book or a comic strip. It's a, you know, a very short storyboard that gets to the heart of the problem and the solution that we're ideating.

Danny: And we come back to those customers and we say, Hey, you told us that you have this problem. Here's the solution that we think might work for that. How does that strike you? Is that interesting to you? Would you find value in it? Would you pay for it? If so, what features absolutely must be there so that you'd be willing to pay for it.

Danny: And so by the time we get to the moment of, okay, let's go and actually build something, we have de risked the thing that we're going to build so heavily because we've talked to people about it. Over and over again to the point where we know that the thing that we are pursuing alongside of our client is going to solve a customer need for them, that [00:18:00] we can limit the number of features that we're creating the timeline necessary to get something built and into the hands of our customers and therefore the time that it takes to begin getting it.

Danny: Further feedback so that we can iterate on it. And so we approach all of that through this lens of how can we utilize our customers to help us determine where we can add value to their lives. And we do so with an eye towards de risking and limiting that thing that we're going to build, because once we get to the build stage, that's where things get resource intensive.

Mehmet: Got you. Now, just out of curiosity, Danny, like do for, for, um, For these startups or even the scale apps, do you, uh, like kind of as a traditional venture studio? So do you consider them part of your company and then they, you spin them out? Like how does it work? It

Danny: depends on how that relationship is formed.

Danny: So we do work for hire client work through the consulting side of the business, in which case we get paid, we come in and help [00:19:00] and everything is still yours to own, et cetera. And we're, We're more than happy working that way on the Venture Studio side of the business. We tend to focus those opportunities on much earlier stage, uh, companies and founders and things like that, where we can really get involved and become a business partner there.

Danny: And so, um, It just kind of depends on which door you're walking through. But the simple answer is we're open to both and we are always open to creative relationships with our clients on either side of that fence. So even if they're a consulting client, if you know, if we're working with a consulting client to help them ideate a new product and then bring that product to market to the extent that they are willing to talk about, you know, giving up some equity in lieu of.

Danny: Capital spend, for example, or, you know, looking at some sort of revenue share or something like that, we are always happy to talk about creative ways to build that relationship so that everybody has skin in the game. And, you know, that helps us remain committed and remain focused on that [00:20:00] idea. And it ensures that.

Danny: Uh, our clients feel like their success will lead to our success rather than us just trying to pull as much money out of them as possible through a consulting engagement. And so I guess the easiest answer to that question is we're open to working with our clients in any way that they are excited to come and work with us.

Danny: And it really just comes down to uh, both organizations working together to figure out what the best fit for that relationship is.

Mehmet: That's really cool. Um, just, you know, also one thing you, you were mentioning, and I think a lot of founders. They miss the point of talking to the customers and I always refer them uh to to what Steve lang which is the very well known Educator and entrepreneur always says you have to go out of the building.

Mehmet: So you have I have yes And then you need to go out of the building and going out of the building means literally to go and talk to customers So yes, and I think and to my surprise also like when I took even now with some [00:21:00] entrepreneurs and founders You know, I asked, did you validated this? Uh, yeah, we are sure like, yeah.

Mehmet: Okay. How many people have you asked? No one. Okay. So it's not a validation. So you validated from technology perspective, but not as market need perspective. And I think, you know, this is really, really crucial now, you know, of course, part of what you do also, Danny is You know, there's a lot of technology, uh, involved in, in the whole process, like whether it's in the consultancy part, whether it's on the, um, venture studio part or, or, uh, even the innovation part.

Mehmet: So, and you know, I'm very big fan of the intersection of technology and the business challenges, right? So, so, so. From what you see and what you help your customers with, how you emphasize, or let's say, focus on using technology to streamline the operations as well and, you know, solving business challenges.

Mehmet: And the [00:22:00] first thing that might come to mind is, of course, AI. So, so how are you seeing, you know, this perspective of AI in practice? you know, impacting in the positive side or maybe in the negative side, you know, that, you know, this operation streamlining for, for the startups.

Danny: Um, you've almost asked two questions in there.

Danny: And so I want to kind of tackle them one by one. Um, a lot of the work that we do is focused on helping companies streamline operations through the use of technology. And we've had a number of clients that have come to us with a very clear or a very unclear problem statement. And that might be anything from, Hey, We duct taped together a technology stack in order to get to product market fit.

Danny: We believe that we have now found product market fit and we know that our tech stack will not stand up to scale unless we just keep hiring more people because they will have to make up for where the shortcomings in the technology are. And so in those cases, we have worked with our clients to literally build out an entirely new [00:23:00] operational technology stack on which their entire business is run.

Danny: We've had other clients come to us and say. Uh, something like help. We're drowning an email and that's it. And you know, we come in and help figure out, okay, well, why are we drowning an email? And in that particular case, what we found was their process was email. And so once again, we were back to a process problem that is Uh, an area that is highly serviceable through technology.

Danny: And that then of course leads into the AI side of your question, which is, um, or I guess which I might interpret as, do we need AI? Is AI absolutely necessary in this? Um, if it's not absolutely necessary, how might it be additive? And so we actually tell a lot of our clients that they don't need AI. Yet.

Danny: And I want to be very clear about the yet AI is coming. It will impact everything. Every company should be thinking about AI today so that they understand what it does to the future of their business tomorrow. However, that being said, [00:24:00] there's a lot of operational problems that can be solved through AI.

Danny: Clear cut, well thought out automation that does not rely on AI to create. And so the couple of examples that I just rattled off in terms of, you know, our efforts to create operational software have generally started on the automation side of things. And then. We use that as the opportunity to lay the foundation for future AI use cases.

Danny: And so one of the things that we run into a lot is our clients come to us and given, you know, given the hype cycle that exists around AI today, there's a lot of folks that are looking around going, Oh, AI is a thing we need AI, but there's not necessarily a clear cut understanding of exactly what that means or how their data needs to be structured in order to make use of AI.

Danny: And so. By focusing on what we can help them do without AI today, we also then, uh, build in a little bit of extra time so that we can, at the same time, evaluate what their data structures look like, whether [00:25:00] the data that they have is suitable to building out, for example, a bespoke model, or whether we even need to go down the path of building out, you know, a bespoke AI model for them, or if something Either more off the shelf or at least an open source solution that doesn't take as much effort to create, might be beneficial for them.

Danny: And so as we're thinking about AI, we're balancing that notion of what can we do today to solve the core business problems and have a valuable impact on the business while we are helping that business think about and prepare for their future AI endeavors.

Mehmet: Absolutely. So I'm also like a big fan of using the right technology for solving the problem, not just trying to see how I can fit that there.

Mehmet: Yes, exactly. Because you might end up creating more problems rather than solving the problems, but the automation and, you know, I keep writing this on my LinkedIn. I'm still surprised, you know, how many companies still, they rely on [00:26:00] Pen and paper, believe it or not, for basic things. And you know, I tell them guys, You don't need AI, you know, like forget about the big hypes.

Mehmet: Maybe I will be beneficial, but before that you need to start automate some of your processes and that's, then with time you will have data and then we can, you can start to sit down and think, okay, maybe we can get. Out from this an LLM model that does one, two, three, right? So, right. Yeah. So, so there are the basics, as you said, uh, uh, Danny, which is a hundred percent, uh, true.

Mehmet: Now, you know, when I was going over the profile preparing for, for the, for the episode today, and this is something I like to, to ask you about, because also I believe the same thing. So you believe that failure is a recipe for success.

Danny: I do.

Mehmet: Right. I want you to talk a little bit about it. If maybe you have.

Mehmet: probably a personal or professional experience where failure led to significant breakthrough. And just between [00:27:00] quotes, I tell people I don't have in my dictionary the word failure because I believe it's a lesson, but I would love to hear you, you know, your feedback.

Danny: I, I think I take a very similar perspective with a very different articulation.

Danny: So I believe very strongly in the word failure. I, I have a bit of a personal mantra that has, um, become just that through the course of my career, which is fail beautifully. And I have it, you know, it's up on the wall behind my computer monitor and all of that fun stuff so that I have to look at it all the time.

Danny: And it's a constant reminder to me that if you're going to try to accomplish something, you are inevitably going to fail at some point along the way. And I'm not saying that everybody who goes out to try and build a company or start a startup or build a new piece of technology is going to fail miserably.

Danny: And therefore that's going to go nowhere, but rather in the process of trying to find the right way. That moment of success, there will be many failures along the path. And a lot of people get kind of bogged down in their failures. You know, we're taught from a very [00:28:00] young age that failure is a negative thing.

Danny: It is, I mean, it is literally the way that we are taught the definition of failure. If you failed, you have Done something wrong. You have not succeeded. You have failed. And I believe much as what you've sort of articulated here, that failure is really a learning experience. And so, you know, if you have failed this time, then you know what not to try next time and hopefully have a better idea of what you should try that will mitigate whatever that point of failure was.

Danny: And so. To me, failure is something to be embraced and that's particularly important. You know, as we're talking around the idea of innovation, especially at the corporate level, um, failure tends to breed fear within organizations. People are afraid that if they fail while doing their job, that they're going to, to face negative consequences.

Danny: And the more. That a leadership team within an organization can work to help people understand that that is not true, that failure [00:29:00] is just a learning experience. And really for lack of better terms, encouraging. employees and team members to try things that that will fail along the way, the more benefit and learning will come out of that process.

Danny: And so I guess to make a long story short, I am a firm believer that failure is something that should be accepted. And in some cases, even celebrated, and that Teams and companies can be stronger through the, um, through building a culture where failure is an okay thing to encounter.

Mehmet: So, as they say in the Silicon Valley, fail fast, fail often, right?

Mehmet: Yes, yes. Yeah, so, so, I think the problem with the word failure and, you know, maybe this is, in my humble opinion, because of the education system, you know, back in the days, the place where I grew up, fail means you cannot repeat the same class, right? So, so you fail. You fail to pass from one, one grade to another grade.

Mehmet: And this is like a big shame, right? And [00:30:00] you get ashamed and you know, the guy, he's, he said, Oh, he's the guy repeating the same class, right? So, so I think that this is a little bit, but you know, I always go and tell people, look, whatever you see today, whether like from the big companies or the new ones that they are emerging, like they didn't succeed from the first try, whether it's Google, Microsoft, Apple, you just name it, right?

Mehmet: So, so all these guys. They didn't become what they are today, you know, from the first try. So they didn't, they needed to do trial and errors. They need to do. Testing. And of course, this is how they get there. So 100%. So daddy, of course, now, because you work with different, you know, type of founders, you work on different projects on a different, uh, I would say, uh, maybe innovation, the initiatives.

Mehmet: So you must, you must be now like having kind of a vision of [00:31:00] what are the Is the next big thing and of course, maybe you will tell me I I know this but I mean I mean like but really like in the sense of really the the next innovations that you are expecting or maybe you are seeing from Working with your clients.

Mehmet: So As i'm not asking you know, usually back in the days we used to ask someone What's happening in the next five to ten years not anymore So in the coming near future, what are like the major trends you're expecting to see it like? In the market From a new ventures perspective.

Danny: Um, I mean, the obvious is AI and you've pointed it out.

Danny: We've talked about it. Uh, frankly, I'm tired of hearing about it to an extent. So I'm just going to ignore that one. AI is coming. It's big. We're not getting around it. Um, I think that. The other thing that we need to think heavily about is the ramifications of AI. And we're already starting to see it in terms of the way that people are using AI to cultivate massive cold outbound campaigns and things like that.

Danny: And the reality is that what's happening is it's becoming [00:32:00] much easier to reach people and much easier to send them a message that, um, seems like it should be personal, but then, you know, we still have that moment in AI where it's Just off enough where you're going, eh, this doesn't really feel like a person wrote it.

Danny: And so it begins to feel disingenuous. And so I think one of the trends that we're going to see upcoming is the notion of how do we get over the hump of utilizing the new tools that are disposed, that are at our disposal to. Cultivate meaningful relationships. And that might be between brands and customers that might be within an organization or between organizations.

Danny: But, um, I think that we're still at a point where we haven't figured out what the outcomes of all of these new tools are going to look like and how it's going to change the way that we interact with one another and communicate with one another and so on and so forth. I think the other big trend that, um, you That [00:33:00] will be interesting to keep an eye on, especially as, you know, you and I are sitting here talking about the notions of venture driven growth, for example, are how large organizations and corporations will continue to, uh, defend their turf, so to speak, or continue to maintain relevance as the ability for startups and disruptors to, uh, Begin nipping at their heels becomes much and much faster and easier.

Danny: And I'm excited to see sort of where that goes and what the opportunities are that are cultivated through those relationships as. Hopefully large corporations and organizations begin to envision a world where disruptors and startups are not necessarily the enemy, but are ways for everybody to move forward and benefit one another.

Mehmet: Absolutely. This is my wish also as well, you know, because founders, entrepreneurs, they are always, and it's a fact they are seeing the rebels. They are seeing the people who, which is true, but I [00:34:00] also like. Start to sense that people now, uh, appreciate that actually startups comes to disrupt because, you know, what they thought that it's the only solution currently available.

Mehmet: No, actually there are like other solutions. Right. So, so 100 percent on this. Now, Danny, as we almost came to an end, final advice to People who are on the verge to become entrepreneurs and, you know, or founders who are just starting their journey. So what you want to tell them and where people can get in touch with you and you don't know more about your services.

Danny: Sure. Uh, I usually share fail, fail beautifully when folks ask me this question and I've already put that on the table. So, uh, to grab a couple of other pieces of advice that, you know, I really wish folks had told me early on. Um, one, it will always take longer than you think it will. It doesn't matter what it is.

Danny: Everything takes longer than we think. Feel like it should. And we, we live in a day and age where technology is changing almost by the hour. And so we look [00:35:00] around and go, Oh my God, like I should be able to launch this and make money on it and create a company and sell it for millions or billions or whatever of dollars in six months or a year or 18 or whatever.

Danny: And the reality is that, you know, the, the hype cycle would teach us that, uh, you know, as you nodded to success happens overnight. And the reality is that it always takes longer than you think it will. So, uh, Yeah, that's my big piece of advice. Um, as far as where to find us, uh, we are at Apollo 21. io and we have a bunch of case studies there that talk about the projects that we've done, the types of work that we have helped our clients bring to life and to share sort of what types of innovative things we've been working on with them.

Danny: And more importantly, what the results of those efforts are. And then, of course, we also have a bunch of white papers and, uh, articles and things like that. So if you're interested in anything from how to broach the topic of innovation within your large company to, um, What it means to focus on customer development and why it's important to talk to your customers, [00:36:00] go give those things a read.

Danny: There's a bunch of great information there. And, um, please reach out. We're available at hello at Apollo 21. io. So we're easy to find, and we're always happy to chat with people and share perspectives and, you know, talk about opportunities and how we can help folks bring innovation to life.

Mehmet: Yeah, thank you very much.

Mehmet: Uh, Danny, just sorry. I forget to ask and you serve clients worldwide, right?

Danny: We do. Yes, we are. We are a fully remote company and we're happy to work with folks anywhere. And if we need to be boots on the ground, then, you know, airplanes exist and we're happy to get on this.

Mehmet: This is important. This podcast, it's a, it's a global podcast.

Mehmet: I would say. Awesome. Yeah. So, so, and, uh, For the folks listening or watching us, the link is in the show notes or in the description of YouTube. Danny, really appreciate your insights, you know, your, uh, depth, you know, knowledge also about, you know, innovation, uh, venture studios and how also companies they can disrupt themselves.

Mehmet: So [00:37:00] really, really useful and helpful. I appreciate you gave us, uh, your previous time to be with me today. And this is usually how I add my episodes. This is for the audience. If you just. You know discover this podcast by luck. Thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed if you did So, please subscribe give us give up give us a thumb up and subscribe to the podcast and also Share it with your friends and colleagues We are trying to do some impact here and I appreciate the support from everyone and this is for the people who keep Sending me their comments their you know suggestions keep doing so I read all of them.

Mehmet: I go over all of them So keep doing that. Thank you very much for tuning in. We'll be again in a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye. Bye