#410 How to Scale Innovation: Lessons from Amazon, Visa, and Howdo with West Stringfellow

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet. Today, I'm very pleased joining me from the West Coast in the US, West Stringfellow. Wes, the way I love to do it, as I was telling you before we start the recording, is usually I give it to my [00:01:00] guests to tell us a little bit more about themselves, their background, you know, uh, kind of like how they come to where they are today.

Mehmet: So the floor is yours.

West: Thanks so much for having me on the show. Uh, I really appreciate it. So I'm West Stringfellow. Nice to meet everyone in the audience. Um, currently I'm founder and CEO of Howdo, where I help entrepreneurs accelerate and help businesses innovate. Uh, and I got. To where I am, uh, by doing that myself.

West: So I started in 1997, uh, in technology and was my first startup and just kind of slowly for seven years, work my way from the server closet to a product manager and joined Amazon in 2004 was recruited because I was a big nerd for book metadata and, uh, they, in the time that was one of their primary categories.

West: Uh, and. Worked my way up through Amazon, helped launch their first billable web service, which launched AWS and then helped launch their prime video product. If you've ever watched streaming video, we launched the first version. Uh, and then [00:02:00] after Amazon, uh, I had some, some pretty awesome wins there.

West: Technically we, we developed some of the first passive authentication, uh, paradigms. So like device fingerprinting, uh, Big machine learning models that help reduce fraud. And that helped me get a role as the visas, uh, head of innovation for Europe. Uh, and then I went from there to, uh, PayPal where I led innovation and then ultimately develop my own startup that was acquired by target and became the VP of innovation at target.

West: And then for the last eight years, I've been building how to and helping folks innovate and accelerate their own companies. Wow. What, what, like

Mehmet: a career I would say, uh, West and really it's something very, very impressive. So, you know, I'm always, you know, curious to, to, to understand like what attracted you actually to, uh, to that area, you know, in this specialization that you have done, especially, you know, around AI and, you know, like, [00:03:00] You know, of course, through innovating also as well.

Mehmet: Was there like something special that you felt, okay, like this is something I'm passionate about, or maybe, you know, you know, it was just like, you know, the way how things progress naturally. So how, how, how that happened?

West: Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. Uh, largely by accident. So the, the, the, the first thing that I learned in my career is that if I fix problems in my own job, I tended to make more money or get promotion promoted faster.

West: So a great example is the first, uh, first big problem I ever fixed was that I was legal internship, uh, 1997 helping a startup law firm, uh, figure out how to scale. And, uh, I just built a super little simple file management system. And I went from being an unpaid legal intern to being a highly paid technology consultant.

West: And I was like, this is, you know, way better. And so the next internship I got, same thing. I just fix the, fix the simple problem. And then I started to [00:04:00] realize that, uh, you know, back in 1997, no one knew how to use technology. It was very easy to do very impressive things with extremely limited resources.

West: And, uh, I was very fortunate to ride that technology wave. And so I just dove into it. In as deep as I could, uh, and kept learning on the job and ultimately got to a place like Amazon, which really, really values people who are trying to push technology forward. You know, Amazon, when, uh, uh, when I was hired, I was hired to run the North American media marketplace, which is, you know, books, CDs, things like that.

West: And I went from managing, you know, about 30 million in revenue in 2003 to over 400 million in 2004. And when we think about like managing something that big, you know, you'd think it'd be a pretty complicated process in terms of lots of teams and lots of, uh, bureaucracy and meetings. It was just me. It was just me and a bunch of data.

West: And, uh, the [00:05:00] way Amazon runs their business is that you use the data to determine what to do, and then you use the technology to employ the data to make things move. And it's very different from traditional businesses. And that, that was kind of a big insight for me in that, you know, with the right data, most business becomes fairly obvious.

West: And, uh, ever since then, it's just been a real passion of mine to go into these big companies like Visa and Target and PayPal and help them see that they have an incredible amount of data. And that data is extremely valuable. And that if they use it correctly, managing the business, growing the business, reducing costs, you know, better engaging customers, uh, appealing to investors to get more money for growth.

West: Um, you know, all those things become very easy. If, if they understand their data and can use it to run the business. And so it just kind of fell into it. Uh, but then once I understood it, I just, it's impossible to unsee. Once I saw how Amazon ran their business, I realized that, you know, this type of business is going to win and it requires [00:06:00] process, it requires data.

West: And then ultimately that, you know, when you get to any scale that implies machine learning.

Mehmet: That's really fantastic. Now, something you mentioned, um, Wes now triggered me. To ask this question. Actually, I prepared for that. But you know, like just because you mentioned about the data. So and I think this is common even between startups and big companies at the same time.

Mehmet: So we have to take decisions which are like data driven, right? And at the same time, especially we see it like, you know, you say, okay, like I have this gut feeling that, you know, I need to go and innovate in this and I need to go and create the next solution to solve this problem. So from your experience, doing it like multiple times, like when is.

Mehmet: When is the right approach to take? Like, for example, listening to your gut feeling is telling you and versus no, like I need [00:07:00] to really actually look at the data that I have in my hand. And, you know, if I'm going to go and do something, I'm going to take this data and build on top of, you know, the analysis, you know, the interpretation of the data that I have.

Mehmet: So how, how do you balance these kinds of like dilemma, I would say. That's

West: a great question. Honestly, I struggle with that every day and I think everyone does. Cause I, you know, there, there's the, the way that I delineate it is there are no knowns, so things that we know we know, and then there's obviously the array of unknowns, things we know we don't know and things we wish we knew and things like that.

West: And, and, uh, In a real simple way, if we have an extraordinary amount of data that's statistically significant and can lead us to a primary indicator, like a growth factor or a cost reduction vector, then I think it's important to use the data. Uh, but in a lot of, a lot of times, especially when innovating, you know, what, everything I just said implies ceteris paribus, that everything remains equal.

West: [00:08:00] And the reality is like, especially with something like AI, uh, you know, everything changes very rapidly. Uh, when we start to, when we start to have like hyperscale LLMs, and so I think it depends on the context. If you're working with a very stable technical context, a very stable business customer competition environment, it's real, real important to use data to validate your thinking.

West: But if you've been in that market for a long time, your intuition is probably going to be faster than analysis. If you're dealing with a highly dynamic market, a customer or competition, I find intuition to be less effective. Uh, and especially if you're dealing with a highly dynamic technology, I find intuition to be very challenging and I tend to rely more on data.

West: And, and then, you know, the, the, the weird irony there is in, in dynamic markets, we tend to have less data, but it's more important to rely on the indicators that we do have, because it reduced risks. And for me, whenever I think about investing, you know, Innovation is just another [00:09:00] form of investment. That's all it is, right?

West: It's a very long term investment in technology and people and ultimately customers and capital. And so like the, the, uh, the investment decision has to be made in the least with the least amount of risk. Uh, and the more data that we have, I've found. Especially presenting to like fortune 50 boards, Wall Street, basically, uh, you know, the more data we have, the more money we get, and the easier it is to buy long term permission to really invest.

West: And that's, that's, if we're going to innovate, that's what it takes is long term permission to put a lot of money in a direction that a lot of people may not believe in yet.

Mehmet: Right. And you know, when, when it comes to. Is there like any kind of frameworks or like maybe some best practices that usually companies they utilize to, uh, to build on top of that?

Mehmet: So, because you mentioned you presenting, for example, to, uh, fortune 50 companies and, you [00:10:00] know, the, we're talking about really serious business. So probably we, Need to get really prepared and we need to use like a Certain framework or best practices to make sure that also the audience are understand these executives are Understanding what we are trying to do.

Mehmet: So and I know like you've done it multiple times again west. So What can you show that like what are like kind of a secret sauce if I want to put it this way For presenting this to the board, especially when we talk about You

West: Yeah, it's a great again. It's a great question. It's contextual. I have found that the secret sauce is very dependent upon the company.

West: But if I was to try and find the secret sauce for each company, I start by thinking of the CEO as my customer. And then I look at what the CEO cares about and generally it's the board. And so then I try to understand the [00:11:00] board, uh, as a customer as well. And I go meet with them and I understand what motivates them and what they want to see in terms of.

West: The next steps for the company and the next steps for the revenue, the strategy, the technology, the customer, the market positioning, all those things from the framework that I can develop through those conversations. I then create a pitch, basically, just like you would pitch venture capitalists. I basically pitched the board, uh, ideas, my team and I do.

West: And, uh, we do a lot of research to, to figure out, uh, specifically how we can tie what we're pitching To the specific needs and the specific concerns of the board members of the C suite. So all the C level people and anyone else who's a primary decision maker. Uh, I have found that they generally boil down to five simple things.

West: It's grow revenue, decrease costs, mitigate [00:12:00] risks. Delight customers and empower employees. If you do those five things, well, businesses generally survive. Uh, some businesses, the more ambitious ones have a sixth and that's innovate, which is move all of those things forward faster. Uh, and like Amazon, for example.

West: So it's generally those things.

Mehmet: You know, like, uh, I think it can be explained better out, say, West. Now, when, um, uh, I would say one of the topics that also comes to mind, especially when it comes to innovation. And you mentioned also, uh, Large companies and startups. So now it comes to, to, to the mindset that we need to have.

Mehmet: So what kind of mindset, whether you are in a startup or you are like an executive, you need to, to build on. So you can have this large, you mentioned investment, right? So, so in the previous, you know, question, [00:13:00] you said like, it's like an investment. So. What we need to do so really we can get from and I know like when I was preparing, you mentioned like it's like a zero to billion dollar right return.

Mehmet: So what kind of mindset we're talking about here, Wes?

West: Yeah, uh, uh, the foundational mindset for all investment innovation right now, especially is, is a growth mindset. So the, you know, the, the idea that, uh, with practice, we get better at things. Um, you know, I think that's true individually because the discipline of pitching is, is a skill in and of itself, and there's a lot of rejection before we get good at it.

West: But I also think it's especially true to try and. Carry that perspective into the presentation, into the boardroom, into whatever investor meeting you're having, because everything right now is very much in an evolutionary posture. You know, the, the, the way the economy is positioned, the way politics is working right now, the way society is moving, [00:14:00] you know, all this stuff's changing.

West: So if we have a growth mindset, change is an opportunity. If we have a fixed mindset where we look at change and see that it's scary and don't want to participate in it, then change is risk. And so for investors, it's real important to have a growth mindset, especially if we're in a leadership position in a company.

West: Uh, I think a lot of people can look outside of the world and see technology and whatever the heck else is going on, feel scared about it. And I think it's more important to look at the opportunities they're in. And, and that's just the foundation on top of a growth mindset. I think it's extremely important right now to be customer obsessed.

West: The only thing that existing businesses have as a durable competitive advantage right now is the customer relationship. You know, new technologies are going to be disintermediating capabilities that people thought have been the foundation of their business. And so the customer relationship is the durable asset.

West: So being customer obsessed and then working backwards from customer needs using data. Uh, so [00:15:00] validating everything that they're saying with data and then employing that data. To build your strategy, which means that we have to continuously learn. And that's the final mindset is always learning, especially right now.

West: And I think a lot of companies that full circle goes back to a growth mindset. A lot of companies have a very strong perception of who their customer is and what their customer wants. And that's very dynamic right now. So the faster that we can learn from the customer, use data to define the customer, learn how to update our business, the faster we grow.

West: Right now,

Mehmet: during, you know, your, you know, clarifications and explanation about this. We, we, we mentioned AI multiple times with, and I want a little bit now to, of course, it's not because the hot topic, but it's something we, we have it in our hands now. So how first, let me start with this, how the current technology that we have available for us, uh, the AI technology, [00:16:00] how much have you seen it, you know, kind of a catalyst to organizations that, you know, they, they need, they need the AI now, right?

Mehmet: But at the same time, maybe they are not sure where to put it and where they can innovate. So from your experience, If someone wants to implement an AI strategy, right? So where they should start, like how they can plan and then start implementing, you know, they, the strategies though, so they can make sure they would get, you know, the benefits that of course, AI is promising every single company today to have.

Mehmet: Yeah,

West: it's a good question. I think the, the place to start is, is high frequency. Processes, like, so first off, the place to start is where you have process and data, like if you have, those are the fundamentals in terms of the inputs into AI. And I think AI, you know, [00:17:00] I say AI, because that's what everyone's saying.

West: I still think of it as machine learning and machine learning is, you know, as you know, it's just pattern recognition at scale. And so the more that we can define the pattern, the better the machines going to work. And so, you know, a lot of companies haven't defined their processes, they don't understand their data, their data may not be, uh, in a format that machines can learn from, uh, their processes may not be instrumented so that they're collecting data, but it starts their process and data.

West: If you have good processes that are well defined and consistent, and you're producing good data from those processes, then. You know, that's, that's the best opportunity for machine learning to automate right now. And the way that I see the, uh, capital flow working is if, you know, you automate, you take the savings from that automation, you reinvest it in growth, or you revest it in more savings, and that creates a positive, virtuous circle with capital.

West: And that's how companies are ultimately gonna scale with ai. And so, specifically with the [00:18:00] LLMs that. Folks are excited about right now. Uh, you know, I, the biggest implementation areas are again, pattern and data and for text, which is what an LLM is proficient at it's customer service, marketing, uh, anything that uses language in a pattern process, in a, in a repetitive, uh, usually let's just say uses the same language consistently or uses deviations for small standard deviations of that language consistently.

West: Uh, I think. Some folks think that AI is going to come in and simply automate business. We're a long way from that. Uh, but the, the, the most exciting opportunities are going to come from right now. Uh, getting the, the, the processes in place, the data in place and the teams trained so that the teams can start adapting to the changes that are coming.

West: You know, a lot of companies haven't changed. In a long time, and that is often the most [00:19:00] uncomfortable part of a I, you know, I often say, uh, this what we're going through right now with a I is not a technology problem. It's a it's a people problem. Most companies aren't going to adapt to a I simply because the people don't want to.

West: They don't want to learn. They don't want to change what they're doing. And, you know, there might be some truth to that and that, that might, they may be comfortable there, but I would suggest that, uh, if we're not changing right now, uh, that, that we should be uncomfortable, you know, entropy is increasing and we should be embracing

Mehmet: it.

Mehmet: Absolutely. I'm very happy. And, you know, it's kind of a coincidence maybe. So, uh, So the episode, and you know, by the time this is aired, so the other episode that I recorded just yesterday, it's, it's aired now. And it's, uh, you know, with, uh, uh, Mike Tedesco. So like, I am happy that you brought this before, because yesterday I was like, you know, when, when I was, uh, you know, commenting on the answer.

Mehmet: So I mentioned something [00:20:00] which you just said, Wes, which I, again, I like to repeat things which are valuable, which you just mentioned. So people have this. You know, intention to think that AI is like a, you know, the, the magic wand that it'll solve all the problem. The other thing, and I'm happy because, you know, for me, and we know we discussed this even with some guests previously, it's not like against, you know, naming AI as AI artificially intelligence, but it's exactly what you mentioned.

Mehmet: It's machine learning and machine learning is about to teach the machine, which is the, the computer, how. to spot some patterns. And then, I mean, it's fascinating. Of course, LLMs are fascinating, no doubt, because they take these patterns and they transform, and I'm saying transform because it comes from the famous paper of, of, uh, at Google.

Mehmet: So that transformed these Patterns into some new form of text image video, whatever it is. So I'm happy you brought [00:21:00] this. It was like again here now today. And this is, you know, it triggers again the questions like when should we really go and seek a A. I. L. L. M. Whatever technology it is versus maybe thinking of what are other emerging technologies are available to us today, or maybe they are emerging and then we can go utilize these technologies to have real innovation that can maybe increase our revenue, increase our customer satisfaction.

Mehmet: And, you know, this is what the digital transformation that started is all about is how we can increase revenues, reduce cost, increase customer satisfaction and retention, right? So what's your take on this?

West: I, I agree with you. I think that, uh, emerging technology landscape is fascinating. And it has been, though, since 1997 in my experience, like we've had [00:22:00] so many incredible emerging technologies that businesses haven't engaged in.

West: You know, most businesses haven't even performed their digital transformation. They're still on mainframes or there's, they have highly distributed computer networks. They don't, haven't figured out how to consolidate their data. We were automating at Amazon. We were automating processes in 2005. And we were doing that at scale.

West: So to the tune of hundreds of millions of transactions a day, and most businesses haven't figured out how to collect the data or define the process to automate. And so, you know, if people are thinking that AI is going to transform their business, but they're not even caught up to 2005, it's more likely that someone else who uses AI is going to replace their business.

West: And, and it's not just AI to your point, it's all the emerging technologies that have been around for a long time. I think, you know, the cloud cloud computing, which is something we kind of, or big data, you know, we [00:23:00] kind of lost track of using those words, but that's where the horsepower is. You know, and, and that, but that horsepower, those engines come from having a robust processes and defining a process could be as simple as Excel, you know, or, uh, building an access database, but no one, no one, uh, in small businesses is doing that.

West: A lot of the medium sized businesses aren't doing that. And so in terms of the emerging technologies, I tend to try to get people to use the existing technologies that have proven themselves. If they're there and they're proficient, then I think things like blockchain are fascinating. I think there's a lot of potential for customer value in crypto, not in the, uh, currency exchange format, but more in the just the tokenizing and gamifying most experiences for customers.

West: And I think that most businesses, uh, in terms of what they need to do, you know, They're trying to grow and they're trying to cut costs. That's pretty simple. Uh, [00:24:00] most businesses aren't using technology proficiently to do those things. They're using humans who have very strong beliefs and those beliefs inform patterns of behavior and those patterns of behavior are probably invisible.

West: And so again, I just think it's, it's, it starts with. Trying to train people how to identify what's going on in the first instance. And that's non technical once they understand how to understand where they are, then technology get involved, gets involved. And almost always it's not very impressive. It's stuff like Excel spreadsheets and simple databases.

West: And once that's mastered, then people can start getting into more advanced things, like just use taking that same data they used in Excel in automating it. And once they get to automation, that's where. Advanced emerging technologies become very compelling. You know, that's where the real utility of technology takes over.

West: Because when we think about the purpose of technology, it's, it's to increase productivity. And if we have the ability to automate, that's [00:25:00] when productivity starts to actually become a real thing. Right.

Mehmet: So, so what's on just as a follow up question on this, do you think that, you know, some of the folks out there still think that Adopting a technology is kind of a additional cost on the organization versus that, Oh, if we adopt this technology, actually, we might be able to, I don't know, create a new line of products, uh, create a new services.

Mehmet: So that becomes like a new income, especially with the AI now, like the, the, the opportunities looks endless, right? So why do you think that still? Sometimes we, we have like, I'm not sure how much is the percentage, but people think like, if we get this, we're going to be spending money. We will not see the ROI versus is actually they think about from a different perspective, maybe they will have.

Mehmet: I don't know, like additional stream of income. And maybe you can share some examples regarding that. Yeah, no,

West: it's, it's, [00:26:00] that is the fundamental calculus or math, depending upon the complexity of the problem. But that is the fundamental pitch that I've always make to the boards is, look, if we spend this money, we're going to be able to get more of whatever it is.

West: We're trying to get more of, it could be more savings, more growth, more customers, whatever. And the. Uh, basis for that investment is always in evidence. So there are two types of investments you're making. One is like, Hey, we're catching up. And the other is we're leading. If you're catching up, I look at that market comps.

West: So I look at what is out there. That's a comparable circumstance, maybe not in my industry, but a comparable circumstance where people have invested in this technology they've seen. The productivity gains, they seen the growth, the savings, whatever. And we have therefore been able to witness what that technology transformation did to that company.

West: A great example is Amazon. Uh, you know, so when I, when I, when I was at Amazon, as I said, we automated some processes back in 2005. And then the reason I got hired at [00:27:00] Visa is when I was talking to them about their authentication processes. They didn't in 2007, they took their data that was more than six months old.

West: They put it on a taper wheel and they drove it to a nuclear silo. And so it was impossible to get data more than six months old without having to fully reconstitute the database. And when I asked why they said, because he didn't see that it was useful. So that coming from Amazon, where we. track everything literally and, and have full visibility into every hover state, click every movement of a book, everything to visa.

West: That's like, no, we should just throw that away after six months, you know, to convince visa to use the data. I had, I just pointed it at Amazon. I was like, why are they able to grow with so much less money than you? Why are they able to grow with so much less people than you? Why are they growing so quickly?

West: Well, let's show you how they use data so that they grow. And then it took a long time. It was, it was, [00:28:00] wasn't a very short conversation, but once they, once they understood it and, and then, you know, you know, it's kind of using the market comp to start the conversation and then using their own data to demonstrate value.

West: Once we were able to demonstrate value by using data, then they really started to understand it. And, you know, Most business people are rational. They want evidence. And so if there's a market compound there, the first evidence is, look, someone else is doing it. The second evidence has to be a quick win. So we're going to take a little bit of the data.

West: We're going to demonstrate that we can add value with it, or we're going to take a little bit of the technology. We can demonstrate that we can add value with it. And once we demonstrate a tiny amount of value, we get a little bit more money. Then we demonstrate value again, then we get a lot more money.

West: And then we just keep repeating that cycle. And so, you know, in. I mean, four companies now I've gone from no funding to over 30 million a year in funding, and I've just done that by demonstrating consistently that you're going to give me a million. [00:29:00] I'm going to come back with two. You're going to give me five.

West: I'm going to come back with 10. And I just keep doing that until I get to the point where we're actually a team that's contributing value at scale. Uh, and then so that's one. The other is if you're, if you're pioneering, Okay. Way harder, way harder. Uh, you know, I've built some things that like digital video at, at, at Amazon prime video.

West: Uh, if you've ever watched a video on Amazon, but sure they, they, we failed. I mean, there are books written about that failure. It was terrible. Uh, and we, this because we didn't understand the technology. No one did. We were literally physically popping chips out of computers and putting new chips in that had just been manufactured so that we could encode the video and a new codec that no one had ever used before.

West: Like we were doing all kinds of stuff with CDNs that hadn't been tried at scale. We were building software for HD to be transmitted over the internet and then put on your, like none of that stuff had ever been done. And most of it didn't work the first time. And you know, [00:30:00] that, that we had Jeff Bezos's permission to fail.

West: And so, you know, 2006, when we launched digital video, no one was watching digital video. No one, uh, except for people who were like, you know, streaming stuff from BitTorrent or Pirate Bay or whatever. Uh, when people actually started to watch digital videos, 2012. 2014, 2016, you know, by, by 2020, Amazon was the largest Hollywood studio in America, like bigger than Hollywood.

West: And so the, the, you know, 2006 to 2020, that's an incredible amount of time to invest in one direction. Uh, and they did. And they, that's how they win. Same with web services. When I remember , I remember when, uh, when. When I got to Amazon, I had this thing. I wanted this data. I really wanted to, as I was the largest marketplace seller, I took over the marketplace.

West: They asked what I, you know, as this, as the seller, what could, what could we have done to make your life easier? Uh, and I said, I want this data. Here's how I would have wanted this [00:31:00] data. Here's how I want to use this data, blah, blah, blah. And that became. That, that little conversation became one of Amazon's first billable web services.

West: When we launched that, I remember telling all my friends like, yeah, Oh my God, dude, we are selling data via an API. Like, this is so cool. And my friends were like, that is the dumbest thing that doesn't make any, who's going to do that? Like, why would anyone ever want to do that? And I'm like, also you can do processing or put your data up here.

West: And people are like, that is so stupid. Like, why would I do that? I have a server rack over here. I don't need any of that. That's AWS. AWS. You know, it took Google didn't launch a web service for two and a half years because they didn't think that it was a viable market. So like, you know, AWS produces like a trillion dollars in market value for Amazon.

West: And the, the, you know, that was a long term bet again, but what, what it took for them was vision. They knew that it worked internally. They, they done the little micro tests. There's a lot of failures on those little micro tests, but [00:32:00] they knew that technology was trending in a specific direction and they decided to invest long term in that direction.

West: So, You know, if you're trying to make a longterm bet, you don't have billions of dollars. I try to look at people who are making longterm bets that do have billions of dollars and are credible at making longterm bets. And I use Amazon as the benchmark there. Amazon has consistently picked the right technology, the right growth factor and one.

West: And so, you know, if we're a startup, like for me, I'm still a startup at this point, like I look at where Amazon's investing in technology and I just say, control C control V, you know, like I want to invest where they're investing because if they've picked a lane, it's probably backed by a lot of data and a lot of smart people.

West: So if we're big invest billions. It takes a lot of time. If we're small, look at people who are investing billions and are credible and copy them.

Mehmet: Just, you know, on that West it's very important. And, you know, is to see the vision and the full [00:33:00] picture. So, and I'm sure like also you have done it in every role you've been in, because as someone, and you did like in, in product management, right?

Mehmet: So, so in, in. As a product manager or chief product manager sometime, uh,

Mehmet: you need to convince a bunch of people to come with you and, you know, take this, I would say leap of faith, like guys, maybe not everyone is agreeing with what we are trying to build now, but. We're gonna do it. So what kind of team you want with you West when you venture in such a road

West: problem solvers, people, people who are willing to literally solve problems.

West: And that sounds kind of obvious. But, uh, in my experience, there are people who talk about the desire to solve problems and then you give them the You know, a million dollar problem that they need to [00:34:00] solve and they quickly decide it's not for them. And what I mean by that is, you know, when you solve a problem, you're dealing with, I don't know all the time, like in your head, in my head, every day, when I wake up, the thing that I'm trying to build right now, I, you know, I've, I've been building, I've been self funding and building this for seven years.

West: Right. And, uh, it's a really complicated piece of technology and that's why it's taken so long. And the. Number of times in a day I say, I don't know, is exhausting. And I'm constantly having to answer questions that I've never even thought of, or that really in many instances, I can't find any evidence of other people thinking of, and you know, that, that I love working with people who are willing to do that because it's very uncomfortable and, uh, there are, there's a great example.

West: There's this, uh, Colleague of mine, Priya, who I worked with, and I've hired her multiple times because she's just the best problem solver. And, uh, you know, I'd give her really, really gnarly, gnarly, either operational [00:35:00] problems, like we need to figure out this process or. Organizational problems like at eBay.

West: I think they had 20 something companies and I was the head of platform and the companies weren't working together and I needed them to work together. And so I just told her, Hey, look, I will give you all the air cover you need. I'll give you all the resources you need. Please figure out how we can work together.

West: Cause this is just. Not working. And, you know, she would go and solve the operational process. She would go and solve the organizational problem. She was also a brilliant technologist. She was one of the best at PayPal. She was in their leadership program for technology leaders. Uh, I could ask her to go solve like a really difficult architecture challenge.

West: Like one of the things that we had to do is move PayPal's authentication from three seconds to under 300 milliseconds. You know, it's extraordinary efficiency that we had to extract from an old platform and, you know, She could dive into some really specific nuts and bolts, nuance of that migration and, and be able to hold a very competent conversation with the chief architect at PayPal.[00:36:00]

West: And so, you know, the, the ability to, for someone to kind of be a polygon and the, Problem solver. If they can, if they can do that, then they can run

Mehmet: West. One thing, because also this is, I think in my opinion, uh, I'm curious honestly. And, but I think it's, it will be beneficial for, for the audience as well.

Mehmet: So you've done this. I mean, not into one, let's call it vertical or sector. So you've done this like multiple places. So you've done this at Amazon. You've done this, which is like Amazon. So, and Amazon, you did it on the video entertainment side, I would say. And on the AWS side, which is like infrastructure visa, it's a finance.

Mehmet: And then I know like you were also at Rosetta Stone at some stage, PayPal, right. And big commerce. So. And then, you know, at Target, you know, which is kind of a retail. So how you were able to, [00:37:00] you know, because you know what I have seen. And again, because I work for some companies, I used to interact with a lot of, with product managers and people who loves the product management part and, you know, leading products and innovation.

Mehmet: So I see them like kind of, they go and specialize, but for you, it's like kind You've, you've been able to apply the same framework or the same concepts and make it success in different, you know, verticals. What's the, what made it work for you? I would say.

West: I always go back to first principles. And, uh, I try to make everything really simple.

West: And I find that with people and businesses, uh, it can be very simple. It's just understanding the people what's motivating them. And then there's a, you know, how on how do. com, the, the website that I'm building right now, the platform that I'm building, I've open sourced all my processes. So how I get to first principles, I've, [00:38:00] uh, all the questions that I ask, the processes that I run, they're for free, free, literally on, uh, how do.

West: com. Uh, and it's really about, I say data and process probably way too much in this podcast. I apologize, but like, you know, I go into each company, I try to understand the executives, what they, what they care about, both in terms of the business, but also as humans. And then I try to understand the board or the investors and similarly what they care about.

West: And then I try to really understand my team. Like, I've always found the best knowledge comes from the people who already are in the business. Like, I don't come in with a bunch of big ideas sometimes. I guess that's the truth. A couple of times I've, people have either bought stuff that I've bought my patents or, you know, I've sold ideas into the businesses and then gone and built them.

West: But, but, but the ability to get stuff done, the ability to actually navigate the organization, the great ideas that are sitting on the shelf, that if we just did that idea, it would. [00:39:00] Move the business forward in some way that's all there. And so, you know, as soon as I understand the leadership and I understand the investors, then I really try to understand the team and figure out the people who are the change makers, figure out the people who have incredible capabilities, incredible intelligence and ideas.

West: And no one's really allowed them to, to let themselves go and to actually go do the things that they, they want to do. And so, you know, it's, it's under understanding what's above me, managing that, understanding the folks working with me and empowering them. And, you know, I found once I get the data in place in my head, where I understand, okay, this is what motivates leadership.

West: This is what motivates my team. Here's how I can manage leadership. Here's how I can empower them with the ability to give me money, which is ultimately what I want. I want to get my money so that I can build my stuff. Uh, then I try to build my team, right? And when I say get me money, I'm just talking about the budget.

West: I just want to get the budget for my team so that we can [00:40:00] start making progress. Because as soon as I have budget, as soon as we can make progress, everything starts taking care of itself. Um, and so then yeah. In terms of execution, you know, I started as a technologist and, and, uh, self trained, so I'm terrible at it.

West: But, uh, you know, I, I really try to get the smallest amount of capital that I need to show the largest amount of value. And, and most businesses don't have an efficiency leverage like that. They, a lot of people go in there asking for a ton of money, same with investors. They go ask for a ton of money. And, you know, even when I talk to venture capitalists, I'm like, look, I'll ask you for 10 million.

West: But I'm not going to use it until we talk about how I'm going to use it. I'm going to use a hundred thousand and I'm going to show you that I'm going to, I should spend a million, then I'm going to spend a million. I'm going to show you that I should spend 3 million. And I kind of ladder up that way. And by laddering up that way, by the time I get to the real volume of capital, um, I can run.

West: My team can run, which is the most [00:41:00] important thing. And so it's understand the folks who at the top understand the teams that I can help with empower, listening to the teams, and then spending every waking hour trying to get the capital to empower the team. So we could do what they think and do what the vision requires.

Mehmet: You know, like, uh, I love this approach because also I'm, you know, I'm biased a little bit West. And you know, when, when I see someone like yourself who, um, You go by the first principles, right? So which is how we can get this done in a better way than people are doing it currently, right? Regardless of what it is.

Mehmet: So sometimes, you know, because I think this is by nature kind of, and you know, by experience you start to get it because what happens is like you, if you see something which you feel it can be done, You know, in a better way, you start to have this edge. Okay, how I can do this better, even if you're not maybe specialized in this, but as you said, like problem solvers, right?

Mehmet: So this is what you start to look at how, [00:42:00] how I can solve this problem. And you start to ask people, Hey, like, tell me like, like, can we do this? Can we do that? And I love really this approach because it reflects, you know, like, In my opinion, every one of us should be like this. This is the ultimate scenario for humanity.

Mehmet: All of us, we were on the, on the edge of making everything better all the time. It's like, you need that first step and then you need to have, of course, the leadership so people can follow you and, and start to, to, okay. He's doing something different. Let's let's let's follow which is I think this is kind of also human nature because you said like people are Have the rationale, right?

Mehmet: They they need to to understand why we are doing why we are doing the change and so on so 100 on this but I loved you know this approach so Uh west as we are coming almost to an end. I want you to you know, tell me Especially because we talked about startups as well. So for startups to really be able to differentiate themselves, especially in this [00:43:00] crowded market, um, we have today, like what do you think their messaging in terms of innovation should be?

Mehmet: So first they can succeed. Second, they can secure. Funding from VCs, investors in general.

West: Yeah, it's, uh, it's tough right now because everyone's talking about AI and, uh, it's really easy to, it's never been easier to build a startup. So, you know, there's a lot of competition. I think the best thing to say is I, I know my customer and either I know them because I am my customer and I'm solving my own problem and therefore I'm the expert who could do it or, um, I have spent so much time with the customer that I literally dream about their problems.

West: Like I, I empathize with them so specifically that I understand them better than anyone. If investors hear that they understand in the first instance, that you're probably going to be able to build something that the customer identifies with. And that's the, that's the foundation of product market [00:44:00] fit. I think the second thing is that there's a team of people who are doing that.

West: Uh, you know, When I built a Techstars startup accelerator after Target acquired my startup, I became the VP of innovation, and then I built a Techstars startup accelerator, brought dozens of startups into Target and help them grow. The fun thing that I learned from Techstars is that as they do due diligence, when they figure out who to invest in, they look simply at two things.

West: And the first is the team, and they do a deep dive there. Are these problem solvers, are these resilient people, do they identify with the customer and are they going to learn quickly? If so, is their market big and growing? So, you know, it's real simple. If you can identify, empathize with your customer, you have a team of people who shares your empathy.

West: You're all problem solvers. You're all working hard and you're doing that in a market that's growing and already large and large, you know, large can be Relative, but more than 3 billion is kind [00:45:00] of a good place to start with your market. Um, you know, that, that is a, that is a real opportunity for investment at an early stage.

West: Um, and I, and I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that. I think a lot of people kind of get lost in trying to figure out some sort of magic, but it's pretty simple.

Mehmet: And I think West also one thing I know of usually, you know, whether it's tech stars or like any other of these big organizations that do the acceleration and incubation.

Mehmet: So they look also for people or like founders, as you said, so they look for the team. And they look specifically if you actually understand the market better than anyone else and the problem, not the solution, because you need to be able to relate. Okay, like, for example, sometimes I get some founders and I try to kind of do a rehearsal with them before they go, actually.

Mehmet: And so I asked them one simple question. Why you want to solve this problem actually and you know [00:46:00] That's a great

West: question

Mehmet: No, and what I want to understand I at least for me because I I try to put myself in in kind of two shoes Let me say like this So I put myself in in in as an investor and I put myself as the customer who cannot buy uh the service or the product and I try to understand if the founders are are themselves aware of the market that they are in.

Mehmet: So they understand, you know, the dynamics, they understand, or they can build the empathy also. With with their uh with their customers because if they can't build the empathy and to your point now, it's very easy And thanks to the open ais and the anthropics and the google of the world who allowed everyone now To go and say hey i'm building an ai that can do.

Mehmet: I don't know better. Yeah, right Yeah, yeah, so there's plenty of you. I'm not saying that they're gonna fail don't get me wrong But I mean to me if i'm just putting my [00:47:00] Stuffing the world AI or at some stage you remember maybe west so people are coming like I have blockchain. Yeah Something technology at some stage they used to you know Like every now and then we see like whatever is emerging and you know hot now, so we're gonna put that in Software defined was, you know, because I come in from infrastructure, uh, background, I have the software defined for, I don't know what, or I have the next generation, you know, it's like another about marketing.

Mehmet: It's nice to do marketing, but to your point, like, I really love, you know, the way you, you have put it. Um, Well, it's like, really, I think we discussed plenty of things today and, you know, I think we need to do more episodes, but if

West: you

Mehmet: want to, you know, leave the audience with kind of final words of wisdom, plus, uh, where they can get in touch with you and, you know, know more about you and, uh,

West: Yeah, uh, I'd say there's never been a better time to build a business than right now.

West: I [00:48:00] honestly think this is the best time in human history to build a business. And, and if we, if we think about what the technology could do, might be one of the last times to build a big business. Cause once AI exists, it's going to be a very powerful tool for business building. So I think it's time to run, run, run.

West: And where the folks want to find me, I'm on how do. And, and, uh, how do.com as well, uh, on LinkedIn? Uh, but I would say, I would say for folks out there who are looking to, to build their own thing, how do.com has free resources. There's no catch. I'm not charging anything.

Mehmet: That's great. And for the audience, if you are listening on your favorite.

Mehmet: Podcasting, uh, application. So you can find the links in the show notes. If you're watching this on YouTube, you find that on, uh, the description West. I really, really, really enjoyed the, the, the conversation with you today, like, uh, a lot of energy, which is, you know, I love and I'm, I'm passionate myself also about innovation.

Mehmet: [00:49:00] Uh, and if you see, you know, I say. The podcast main goal is to get insights idea and innovation because you know I'm big believer that this is how you know, we can get the world a better place than we found it, you know, so So so so it's a great things that you discussed with us today And thank you for the time and this is for the audience If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by.

Mehmet: I hope you enjoyed if you did so, please help us give us a thumb up share it and Tell your friends about this podcast and if you are one of the people who keep coming back Thank you for doing so and thank you for all your support and encouragement And thank you also for all the engagement you do with me whether offline or on on my linkedin Thank you very much for that.

Mehmet: And as I say always thank you for tuning in We will be again in a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye. Bye

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