#426 The EV Revolution: Visionaries Shaping the Future of Transportation with Ken Boyer

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to CTO show with Mehmet. Today, I'm very pleased joining me from the US, Ken Boyer. So Ken, uh, the way I love to do it is I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves. Just I like to give a kind of a spoiler to the [00:01:00] audience that we're going to talk about a very hot topic, which is EVs, you know, electric vehicles.

Mehmet: So Ken, a little bit more about you, about, you know, your journey and what you're currently up to and then we can start the discussion from there.

Ken: Okay, great. Um, I am a researcher in supply chain management. I've been teaching and researching supply chain management for 30 years. Before that I earned a mechanical engineering degree and my first car was a Ford probe.

Ken: So I've always loved cars and today I'm here to talk about my book, the electric vehicle revolution, five visionaries leading the charge.

Mehmet: That's great

Ken: University by the way.

Mehmet: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you again Ken for being here with me today. Um, so, um, You just you know Combined, you know a love of cars engineering and you know some deep dive Of [00:02:00] supply chain management.

Mehmet: So what inspired you to write the book ken? So what was like the main reason you decided to to to do this?

Ken: Well, they're really two. One is I have a very good friend who was the founding provost of a new university in Vietnam who, uh, offered me a chance to come visit Vietnam on a sabbatical, but a sabbatical is meant to do deep research.

Ken: And so the 2nd thing is, uh, the car industry is in a historic. inflection point where it been essentially the entire industry is changing. And there's a car company in Vietnam that I could research when I was there. So we'll start with that company. My first visionary is Pham Nhat Hoang, who was born at the height of the Tet Offensive in 1968, which is when president Nixon essentially tried to bomb Vietnam into [00:03:00] submission and the Vietnamese resisted very strongly.

Ken: Uh, but essentially Vong was born dirt poor, grew up, uh, without any resources, was very smart, went to Moscow to study and started a company called Vingroup. Um, he initially started making, uh, noodles in the Ukraine and sold that business for 175 million to Nestle in the late nineties, moves back to Vietnam, continues developing property.

Ken: Becomes Vietnam's first billionaire. Richest man starts a whole bunch of companies, Vin AI, Vin Mart, Vin Homes, Vin, uh, schools, Vin University, and now VinFast. So they started a car company, which is what led me to write this book.

Mehmet: Great. Uh, Ken, it's, it's a, you know, nice always to hear the. Story behind it.

Mehmet: So let's start to discuss [00:04:00] the topic itself. So EVs electric vehicles, you know everyone gets excited like It's a game changer technology. So from your perspective and you know, we've done like great work on that also as well can uh How do you see, you know, this revolution, you know, not reshaping only You know the transportation but actually the global, uh economy You

Ken: Well, that's a very deep question.

Ken: So let me show a picture of my book. Um, my book focuses primarily on American car companies and VinFast out of Vietnam. Uh, it does include in chapter two, the gears of change, a discussion of the Chinese car industry, but being only one person, I had limited somewhere. So, Minute to your question. First off, I'll say is this is indeed a revolution.

Ken: It's a once in a century thing. The world is going [00:05:00] electric and particularly in the last year or so, what's become very scary to me is it looks like China's winning. China is selling over 50 percent of its cars are electric. Uh, China's infrastructure, supply chains and manufacturing are set up to make electric cars.

Ken: They're exporting millions of cars. Meanwhile, there's a pullback in Europe and the U. S. Uh, for a variety of reasons, some of which are justified, some of which are not justified. But there's a consumer, uh, fear a little bit of electric cars. The reality is electric cars are a better product. Now they need some engineering.

Ken: We've had a hundred years to do, uh, internal combustion engines. There are some things that need to be figured out about electric cars, but let me introduce my second visionary, Elon Musk. What many people don't [00:06:00] realize is Elon Musk was not the only founder of Tesla. He was actually the fifth employee after Mark Tarpenning.

Ken: Uh, uh, sorry, I'm drawing a blank. Uh, Ian Wright, J. B. Strummel, and, uh, Uh, Martin Eberhardt, and so they founded the car company on the premise that electric cars could be better. Musk came and brought money, and over time he nudged the other four aside, they actually had to sue him to be named as co founders.

Ken: Okay, so, finishing up to your question, electric cars are a better technology. Now there's some things we need to figure out, but my worry right now is that with the politics in the U. S. That the Western economies are falling behind and that China and other, uh, countries are going to sweep in and, and, and, and have a sea change of technology.

Ken: That's,[00:07:00]

Mehmet: that's, you know, thought provoking. I would say can actually, um, so, so it's good. You mentioned about Elon Musk, like, and he did Dominates, you know, the the headlines usually but in your book, I know like you highlight some other other ones like like who are they and What set them apart from from you know, of course the work that Elon Musk have done

Ken: great great Um, so so let's jump to honda which I call the nervous giant um Students of history can go back and look in my book gives some history.

Ken: It's a backwards forwards look Um honda came to the u. s By 1959, they were the world's largest motorcycle manufacturer, and they came to the U. S. starting in the mid to late 70s, first opening a motorcycle plant, and there was a study by the Boston Consulting Group And a [00:08:00] series of strategy professors around the world studying strategy coined the term core competence about Honda.

Ken: Honda's core competence is its internal, internal combustion engine expertise. So Honda came to America in the 70s and 80s. Their manufacturing plant is that way, about 40 miles from my house. Um, they have the world's biggest plant for internal combustion engines in Anna, Ohio, about 80 miles northwest of my house.

Ken: So the point is, and the reason I looked at Honda is there was a lot of angst in America in the 70s and 80s about the Japanese car companies coming in. A lot of politics, looks very similar to today. But what happened over time is there was a melding and many of those car companies became very world focused.

Ken: So Honda has huge operations in the US and Canada and Mexico. Toyota, [00:09:00] um, that's one path. Where the auto industry can do that is Donald Trump threatens tariffs. One path might be for the Chinese auto companies to build plants in America, employ Americans. Just like Toyota and Honda.

Mehmet: That's again, like, uh, again, thought provoking, I would say. Um, so, you know, talking about, uh, you know, I would say the, the issues or the hurdles for, for the adoption of electric vehicles in general, like, um, um, so is it like supply chain, is it like. You know, people accepting these, uh, uh, these new kind of, of, you know, vehicles that, you know, they rely on batteries, not on gas.

Mehmet: Uh, or like, is it, I don't know, is it like the technology itself? So what are like some of these challenges and do you think is the biggest one? I mean, Kind of a threat for the momentum of the EV revolution. [00:10:00]

Ken: Well, so Chapter two of my book is really the strategy chapter. It's called the gears of change, which is An intended pun because you don't need as many gears Uh in an electric car because of how the motors work, uh, but the gears of change are three willingness to commit is Essentially marketing who are you trying to convince?

Ken: What are you using to try to convince them? Or the people China put in place huge incentives, both carrots and sticks 20 years ago to move towards electric because China realized it couldn't compete in gasoline. The, the Europe, Europeans and Americans have put in place those incentives. Uh, president Biden's inflation reduction act has huge incentives and has created investments in.

Ken: Uh, both red and blue states, states that [00:11:00] voted for Trump that are actually getting more of the dollars for the investments to build more of an American supply chain. So willingness to commit is one gear. Ability to profit. Somebody has to make money. Somebody has to pay for things. So what a lot of people don't realize is that Tesla is only here because it got help from the American government.

Ken: It also got help from the Chinese government and the California government. Uh, in 2008, it got a 465 do million dollars loan from the Department of Energy. Without that, Tesla wouldn't exist. And then the third gear is transform the supply network, working across suppliers to build a new thing and forming partnerships.

Ken: Just yesterday it was announced that Nissan and Honda are considering a merger. Right. And what many in the industry are looking at is that the, the, the car industry may merge to four or five global players. Um, and that there's gonna be a lot of [00:12:00] shake up and shake out over the next few years.

Mehmet: It's a big news, I would say, Ken, right?

Mehmet: So having, uh, having this merger would make them the biggest, I think, uh, manufacturer in the world

Ken: certainly would make them, uh, uh, vault closer to Toyota.

Mehmet: Right, right. Um, so now I hear from some people sometime and I'm again, I'm not the expert in this. They say like, yeah, we're trying to, to get rid of, uh, you know, the, the fossil fuel, but we're using something which is like, uh, also a rare metal, uh, you know, for, for having these batteries.

Mehmet: And we're kind of trading one problem for another. Is that true? Like, what's, what's your take on that?

Ken: Um, Mehmet, that's, [00:13:00] it's, it's intriguing. Everybody wants to find simple answers and Um, as a sort of recovering engineer, as a supply chain expert, the answers aren't always simple. Part of the answer is simple, but then you gotta look at the details.

Ken: So I have an entire chapter called power sources where I look at essentially the supply chain for power going from essentially fossil fuels on one hand to renewables like electricity, solar, nuclear, not electricity, solar, wind, nuclear. On the other hand, and our world benefits, if we use more renewables, the, one of the great advantages is the cost of renewables is plummeted by a factor of 10 over the last 10 years.

Ken: One of the big drawbacks is we have to store energy. The sun doesn't shine all the time. The wind doesn't blow all of the time. So there are thousands, if not millions of people's working on battery technology around the world. [00:14:00] And so, yes, there are problems with any new technology. Um, if I can, and interrupt me if I'm going on too long, I'll tell you two quick stories.

Mehmet: Please, please go ahead Ken.

Ken: So the first quick story is Marcus Samuel. Have you ever heard of Marcus Samuel?

Mehmet: Uh, not sure, so please tell us.

Ken: You have heard of John Rockefeller, correct?

Mehmet: Yes, of course, of course.

Ken: So Marcus Samuel was a merchant in London, sold seashells. His father started a business selling seashells.

Ken: Marcus Samuel, the 1888, he went to Azerbaijan, Baku oil well. Was so prolific that they couldn't figure out how to cap the oil. Well, it put out, I think 20 million barrels a day and there were lakes of oil. Now, why couldn't they sell [00:15:00] the oil? Well, Rockefeller and standard oil had a monopoly and they used to cut to kill strategy.

Ken: To prevent competitors from taking their business. So they had reached a deal with the Rothschilds, rich bankers of Europe, that they could ship oil to Japan. And this is before it was being used for cars. It was being used for lighting in tiny little tins, this big, four inches long by an inch and a half wide by half an inch tall on a wooden ships.

Ken: Anybody today can go, oh, that's not the perfect solution, is it? Marcus Samuel is the man who came up with the first viable oil tanker, the Murex. He hired a ship company out of London, out of England. Had the Murex designed as exacting specifications with a lot of safety features. And part of his brilliance was the man who was the head of the, uh, Company was on the board of Lloyd's of London because he needed approval to sail through [00:16:00] the Suez canal, got approval to go through the Suez canal, made a lot of money.

Ken: His company that he founded going back to the seashell merchant is shell oil. Okay. So the point of that story is we figure out better ways to do things, but sometimes there are almost always, there are some unintended consequences. Yeah. So jumping to, um, today, are there unintended consequences or problems with electric cars?

Ken: Absolutely. They require rare, hard to find and to mine materials. We require storage. So there are many people working on figuring out ways to make batteries last longer, ways to recycle batteries. And so on. Does that make sense?

Ken: Um, so the world becomes a better [00:17:00] place if we use more renewable fuels. And here's the second thing. If we develop more of a circular economy where we can recycle these things.

Mehmet: That's, uh, it's a nice, it's a nice story to hear. From from you can now like if I want to think about, you know, um, like, uh, the technology making this happens, right? So and to improve, you know, this and make it more palatable, I would say. How do you envision, you know, this to happen? Like how long it's gonna take us?

Mehmet: I remember I had a guest last year. Uh, Gleb Yushin, who's, uh, you know, CTO for one of the companies that manufactured the batteries. So he was telling me he expects by 2030, you know, we're going to see EVs everywhere. So what's your point of view on this?

Ken: Technological innovation, um, [00:18:00] is a challenge. There's a famous theory called the Adoption S Curve. Clayton Christensen is, uh, uh, may he rest in peace. Uh, one of the world's experts. Um, I was looking at an article the other day where he says that technology advances by S curves, where it goes like this, goes up and then flattens and finds a plateau.

Ken: But, uh, the world finds new technologies. Batteries are a new technology. So people have advanced batteries so that they are viable and they will work. Okay. Very effectively today, but there's still a lot of ride sharing anxiety. So there are many people working on other types of batteries, solid state batteries, ways of putting the batteries together and connecting them in cells that will allow them to charge faster to hold longer charges.

Ken: Um, I firmly believe that over time, maybe by 2030, like you say, maybe by 2035, we'll come up with much better [00:19:00] ways of powering cars by electricity, which allow us to recharge much quicker. So real quickly, let me tie this back to, again, another historical precedent. Henry Ford, the og, who largely helped bring our world to be to bear by the Model T.

Ken: Used to be a group, part of a group called the Vagabonds him, and to Thomas Alva Edison, Harvey Firestone and John Burrow used to take trips by car in the late teens, 19 teens, 19, 10, 19, 18, 19, 19, 1920s, and they had to carry their own gasoline because there weren't enough gasoline stations. In 1920, there was one gasoline station for every 2, 000 gasoline vehicles in the U.

Ken: S., and there weren't many gasoline vehicles. By 1930, there was one gasoline station for every 200 gasoline vehicles in the U. S., and there was [00:20:00] a factor of magnitude more cars. So there we know the egg caught up to the chicken.

Mehmet: Now, one question, Ken, uh, what is the role of governments do you think in making this viable and what is currently being done the right way?

Mehmet: What's currently being done the wrong way and how it can be enhanced?

Ken: That is a billion or trillion dollar question, Mehmet. Um, governments are absolutely essential. Um, chapter two of my book goes through what the Chinese government did to make, to spur this revolution. Um, the Norwegian government, I'll give another example, has been very supportive. For people of a certain age, roughly my age, who know the band A Ha, the lead singer of A Ha was part of a group of people that crusaded in the 90s to adopt electric cars.

Ken: So they got the Norwegian [00:21:00] government to put in place some carrots and some sticks to encourage electric vehicle adoption. Okay. Um, willingness to commit. You can market all you want, but you need government help to make this work. So right now, and I'm speaking directly to president Trump or any of his team, if he's listening.

Ken: The Inflation Reduction Act did some things very well. It put in place incentives to create and improve an American supply chain, uh, for the key ingredients for electric vehicles. We absolutely need to have that as a country. It also put in place a 7, 500 tax credit to encourage Americans to buy electric cars.

Ken: I hear that that is under threat. I've looked at that very carefully. It does not need to be a permanent fixture, but it is a great carrot to get people to consider electric vehicles. At the end of the day, the technology will win out because it's better, [00:22:00] but I think those government incentives are very, very helpful and important for the competitiveness of America.

Ken: In Europe, the competitiveness of Europe. And again, any government in the world needs to look a little bit about where it stands compared to, uh, other governments.

Mehmet: You mentioned something again about supply chain and, you know, about, you know, getting the materials and all this. So one of the things that, you know, people have this, uh, inception, I would say is that, you know, electric vehicles are expensive.

Mehmet: Not affordable. So in that space, like what do you think things are, can be moving forward to make really EVs, you know, not being seen as something luxury, right? So people, when they think about this stuff today, they think about something luxurious, right? Uh, Chinese are trying to change this little bit, but still, you know, it's kind of like [00:23:00] of these fancy stuff.

Mehmet: So how this can be changed and what is this? Are we going into this direction?

Ken: We absolutely are. Um, first thing is people are opportunistic. So many of the existing car companies tried to do what Tesla did, which is make an expensive car and pay their way towards making a less expensive car without feeling the pain of having to cut costs.

Ken: That's not gonna work. So Jim Farley, the CEO of Ford, a year ago announced that they had a skunk works working on developing a lower cost car. Uh, battery prices are coming down. There are cars in the U. S. That are beginning to approach the affordability level of entry level, uh, internal combustion engine cars and the Chinese manufacturers are so capable.

Ken: Um, B. U. I. [00:24:00] D. Has a car called the seagull that it can sell for 10. 10, 000. There's nothing in America. You can buy for 10, 000. Even if Donald Trump put 100 percent tariff on it, that's a 20, 000 car that's cheaper than almost any American car. And as they say, do the math again. Not one of my visionaries in the book, but Henry Ford shows up a lot.

Ken: The internal combustion engine car was not widely used and didn't become our prevailing mode of transport. Until Henry Ford turned on his Highland Park assembly line and made cars affordable There got to be affordable cars. They're on their way. They are coming.

Mehmet: They are coming Let's let's let's wait and see then can um, you know, another thing which is i'm curious also about is Um, [00:25:00] how are you? So we talk about a lot, you know, from from the U. S. Perspective, and we talked about the supply chain and how things are coming. So what with startups, international players emerging, you know, uh, do you think, like, we're gonna have also some fragmented market over there?

Mehmet: Or are we gonna have, like, just consolidated because we're talking about the merger off Honda and Nissan. So in the E. V. Specifically. So how you Mhm. Perceive to see the market shaping from manufacturer's perspective.

Ken: There's going to be some consolidation, but today there really is no such thing as a car maker that has operations in only one place.

Ken: So going back to my book, uh, the electric vehicle revolution, five vision. I'm looking at my list of visionaries and seeing which ones I talked about. I've talked about Elon Musk. I talked about, um, founder [00:26:00] of VinFast. I have not yet talked about Mary Barra, who is leading General Motors and trying to reinvent General Motors.

Ken: She's the CEO of General Motors. But I also want to bring in Jim DeLuca. Jim DeLuca was hired and recruited to go to Vietnam to help build VinFast when they started in 2017. They did not make any cars. So he went and helped build this company, partnering with BMW to use some of their technology. Mr. Vuong made the choice in 2021 to go electric and kill out sales of gasoline cars.

Ken: It's either the dumbest decision Strategic decision ever or the smartest strategic position ever. He's a billionaire. I'm not so, you know do the math

Ken: But the bottom line is That's why one of my gears has transformed the supply network. There are alliances across the world and across companies Mr. [00:27:00] DeLuca, by the way is now the president of Sear, which is headquartered in Saudi Arabia, which is highly supported by Saudi Arabians, public investment fund.

Ken: Lucid, another electric car company has a large investment by the Saudis and the public investment fund. So the point is you can't point to a single country as the sole home of any car maker. You have to look at the relationships and say, okay, what is the DNA of these companies? Okay. And so part of what the Saudi Arabia is trying to do is transition to new energy.

Ken: And yes, Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil, but if it can create technological know how and make cars and do things like that, then it becomes a much more competitive nation worldwide in a variety of ways.

Mehmet: Right. Can, [00:28:00] one question, beyond vehicles, beyond the cars, Like, because you're studying this, where do you see this going into other, you know, because I asked this to my, uh, to my guest last year.

Mehmet: So where are we seeing this other than driving cars? I mean, going electric and getting rid of the fossil fuel.

Ken: Um, it goes in a lot of areas. Aviation is looking at sustainable aviation fuel. railroads is looking at. Can they use hydrogen or electric trains? Um, many people have called it the energy transition.

Ken: I want to introduce my fifth visionary just for completeness. So lot handsome is the founder of a company called Monolith Materials. Monolith makes something called carbon black, which most people have not heard of. It's essentially soot. It's the black carbon that comes off of right now. The way it's made worldwide is you take petroleum and you [00:29:00] heat it up and you take the, the, the carbon, essentially dust.

Ken: And what this does is carbon black forms 30 percent of every automobile or bicycle or tire on the planet. The Michelin man was white because the natural color rubber is white. People started adding carbon black to tires in the 1910s to make them last Carbon black also goes into paint plastics. All kinds of different things.

Ken: It's one of those, uh, ingredients that makes the world go round. Okay. So back to Rob Hanson, he and his colleague Pete Johnson, uh, and later a third founder, Bill Brady founded a company called Monolith Materials because they found with the help of professor Laurent Fulcherie, who is at the École des Marins Paris, which is not in Paris, it's in, uh, Conn professor Fulcherie found a [00:30:00] way theoretically in 1995 to make carbon water.

Ken: with natural gas and it emits a lot less carbon dioxide. You can imagine burning petroleum is not good for the environment. If you take natural gas and run it through the right chemical process, it is much, much, 90 percent lower in carbon emissions. And it makes two products, carbon black and either ammonia, which can be used for fertilizer, or hydrogen, which can be used for electrical power.

Ken: So Monolith Materials is in Nebraska. They've got their first production scale facility up and running. They're getting close to building a facility that will make eight times as much carbon black and ammonia or hydrogen. This is another way in which we change the world. It's, um, it's through recognizing that our world is a combination of chemistry and energy and that very few of our products are made from a single product.[00:31:00]

Ken: And what we need to do is try to take every product we use and make it in a less bad for the earth way. And also try to recapture it at end of life rather than just throw it out,

Mehmet: right? So can maybe I didn't touch on some of the Of the chapters of the book anything specific you want to highlight that maybe I have missed on

Ken: um, well, so two things um circular economy and this shows up a little bit in the power source chapter and in the um, uh entire chapter The world does better You If we can figure out a way to not go ground to grave or cradle to grave, if we can take ingredients and reuse them at the [00:32:00] end of their life.

Ken: Okay. So I'll give you one example. Um, sure. In the West lead acid batteries, which are the 12 volt batteries that still start almost every car on the planet, including electric cars, use lead. Lead is not good for us because people realize lead was not good for us in a series of legislation. We have almost 100 percent circular economy to capture every battery and recycle that lead.

Ken: Okay, so that's a good thing. Now there's some problems with that circular economy, but to the question you asked a while ago Are we trading one problem for another? The lithium, cobalt, manganese, graphite, all the ingredients in car batteries are rare. They come from mines. Mines tend to be bad for the environment.

Ken: Um, but we need that stuff. There are many companies looking at how do we create a circular economy for [00:33:00] the car batteries. So one of them is service solutions, which has a facility near my house. Why cycle? Redwood materials. There are companies looking at recapturing tires for end of life. Right now, most tires that get recycled simply get shredded up and put down as, as padding for playground equipment.

Ken: That's not a perfect use of the technology. There's a company called Boulder Industries that has developed a chemical process to take the tires. And take it back to its raw ingredients, the oil, the carbon black that can be put back into the supply chain. So I'm very hopeful around the idea of circular supply chains or circular economies of companies, uh, recapturing these materials.

Ken: But again, it goes back to ability to profit. You have to be able to get paid for it. Nobody wants to pay to keep the world clean. We want to [00:34:00] make it a part of the natural economic cycle.

Mehmet: Great, Ken. So, um, any final words of wisdom you want to share with us, you know, and where people can find more about you and about the book.

Ken: Just a little plug. If you're considering a new car anytime in the next year or two, try driving an electric car. They have great acceleration. They're fun to drive. There was a study that came out a couple days ago that says the batteries last far longer under normal driving conditions. It actually helps to accelerate and decelerate quickly to keep the battery.

Ken: Work longer? Give an electric car a try. You don't know until you try it if you'll like it. There used to be in the U. S., Life Cereal had a little kid named Mikey in the 70s and 80s that wouldn't try his Cereal and the commercial was try it. You might like it and mikey tried life. He [00:35:00] loved it. Try an electric car You might love it

Mehmet: some people Yeah, but some people I don't know why they still insist of driving a normal car, uh, I I need to to to get one actually because uh, I like that's quiet.

Mehmet: I I like the fact that it's a very quiet, uh piece of art. I would say

Ken: It does there's part of my book that talks about uh best driving songs People like to listen to songs while they're driving in an electric car. You can listen better,

Mehmet: right? Absolutely. Absolutely So where can we find the book Ken?

Ken: Uh, the book can be found on any internet retailer amazon barnes and noble The publisher is Roman and Littlefield.

Ken: And again, I would gotta put the link in the book is the electric vehicle revolution, five visionaries leading the charge. Uh, can I also, if you want to email me [00:36:00] at Boyer dot nine at OSU dot edu.

Mehmet: Great. Can, you know, like, uh, it was one of the richest, uh, you know, discussions I had ever because you gave us stories, you gave us some history also as well.

Mehmet: Some facts about which people, you know, I think this is the most, uh, Take away for me at least and I think it's for the audience. It's not only about Elon Musk He get of course, you know, we can argue about the guy till the morning, but I mean, uh, It's good to know like who are the other visionaries also as well So thank you for sharing that and of course the future how it looks like, um So, you know, it was really, really informative.

Mehmet: So for the audience, like the book, the links to the book and the email of Ken, we will be able to find that in the show notes. So you don't need to search. So I'll make your life easy. And, uh, also I will, uh, put that into the. Description for the [00:37:00] youtube video can again. Thank you very much for for you know All the time and the insights today and for the audience if you just you know discover this podcast by like Thank you for passing by.

Mehmet: I hope you enjoyed it If you did so, please share it with as much as people you can we're trying to get the knowledge and spread it Across and if you are of the people who keeps coming again and again, thank you for doing so I really appreciate that. Thank you very much for tuning in. We'll be meeting very soon.

Mehmet: Thank you. Bye. Bye