#430 The Future of Search: Vikas Sehgal on AI, Fairness, and Empowering Content Creators

[00:00:00]

Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased joining me from Silicon Valley, Vikas Sehgal. Vikas, thank you very much for being with me here today. Uh, you know, the way I like to do it, I keep it to my guests to little, you know, introduce themselves and tell us about, you know, [00:01:00] their background, their journey and what you are currently up to.

Mehmet: And then we're going to take the conversation from there. So the floor is yours.

Vikas: All right. Well, um, thank you, Mehmet. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Listen to a number of episodes and I've been a fan of what you've been doing. A little bit about myself. I'm Vikas Sehgal. I'm an entrepreneur at heart, but a technologist by training.

Vikas: My undergrad was in computer science. I was born and raised in India. Thank you for having me. I moved here shortly after my undergrad, uh, when I, when I, when I was working on my first startup, which is called Nagarro, um, I helped build that along with some other co founders and friends. Uh, it is now, uh, a billion dollar company publicly listed in Germany with offices and dozens of countries and close to, uh, [00:02:00] Uh, 18, 000 employees now, uh, I ran that company, uh, as CEO and co founder for close to 20 years, uh, before stepping down from that role.

Vikas: And, um, uh, and I'm now working on my, uh, second startup, which is called HyperDart. Um, and here we're taking on an even more challenging, uh, goal, uh, which is to reinvent internet search. Uh, I know there's a lot of talk these days about search and what the future of search is Uh, and we have a unique play in that direction.

Vikas: So i'd love to talk about that as well

Mehmet: Sure, it's an exciting topic. And again, thank you because for being with me here today Um, you know, I always you know, especially with founders and entrepreneurs like yourself because so the first you know Traditional or logical question, let's say, is why HyperDart?

Mehmet: Like, what was, you [00:03:00] know, the challenge that you've seen that, and you thought, okay, I need to, and you just exited a very successful business. So why, why, why, you know, to start HyperDart? What was the main purpose to start the business?

Vikas: So, uh, even, even when I was working on my first company, uh, I always wanted to have a play in consumer tech, uh, consumer tech has always been exciting for me.

Vikas: And, um, you know, I've wanted to, uh, to build our first company was more of a services company where we built products and applications for other enterprises, for other startups. Um, and that makes it, uh, you know, where you'd be. You don't have the final say in what is, is it that is going to impact the world?

Vikas: Um, so I always wanted to have, um, uh, build a product in the consumer tech space and, uh, [00:04:00] and you know, this is just an idea of finding you, um, you know, this idea has been with me for, I would say close to a decade and I've thought about it, I've, uh, researched about it. I've. Um, understood the Internet search space in a lot of depth, and so it's it's not about, you know, me chasing an idea.

Vikas: It's more of an idea of finding me and, you know, just staying with me and and making home in my head. Um, so that's that's what that's what got me into it.

Mehmet: So you mentioned just. A few minutes ago, you know, about what's happening in the search space, um, we've we've I think we are witnessing now some disruption, I would say into something which became legacy with us, like, you know, and let's us not hide anything.

Mehmet: So even the search engine became a verb in English, right? So we say Google, Google it, right. [00:05:00] But we're seeing a lot of things, uh, changing and about to change. So, From your perspective, and you know how this is also, you know what I want to understand, because not only, you know, from the technical side of it, from the business side of it, because this is something that, as you said, it's a consumer business and everyone needs it.

Mehmet: Yes. Let's talk a little bit more about this.

Vikas: Absolutely. I think search is changing. Search is evolving and in a lot of different ways. Um, especially with, um, with the introduction of AI. Um, but at the heart of it, uh, search is essentially users looking for information. And there are providers of information and everything else is clutter in between.

Vikas: Um, you know, whether it was traditional search where web crawlers would go out and crawl web pages and and try to, uh, index them and users doing keyword searches and [00:06:00] the algorithm essentially ranking them and giving you links to those pages. Um, in today's world. Um, you know, there is more AI applied to it.

Vikas: So you read and understand those pages and summarize them for the user. But essentially, you know, the model is users looking for information, providers having information, and then you can put web crawlers in the middle. You can put AI and AI in the middle. You can put all sorts of things in the middle, which you call You know, your search engine, uh, various algorithms and so on and so forth.

Vikas: The way we are approaching search is, you know, make a platform for these information providers to bring their knowledge and intelligence within search. Um, In the traditional search model, um, you know, they have not had a first class seat on the table. In today's model, I think they have an even worse [00:07:00] seat on the table because traditionally you would provide the information or limited information to the web crawler to appear relevant so that you get ranked higher in the search results and then you get the clicks to your site.

Vikas: In the new AI models, You know, the, um, the AI engine can read and summarize this information for you and give you the answer right there. And in most of these models, it is the creators, the knowledge creators who Um, get the short end of the stick. And HyperDart is actually changing all of that. HyperDart is making these knowledge creators really first class citizens within search and, um, to share revenue back with them, to give them prominent position, uh, within search as answer cards, which we call darts on our platform.

Vikas: We could talk more about it, uh, you know, as we go on, but that's, that's [00:08:00] the, the main concept that we're going after.

Mehmet: Fantastic. Because now one thing you mentioned, which I think a lot of people suffered from this, um, and actually started within the search. You know, we know about, you know, the algorithms and you know how to rank higher.

Mehmet: And I used to listen from a lot of, I would say really brilliant people who, you know, they say, okay, I'm creating a content, whether it's a blog, maybe it's some articles, some videos. So they say, why do I need to be treated with someone who is maybe copying me? And just because, you know, so this unfairness in, in, in, in, in the ranking space.

Mehmet: Uh, so how much do you think this is, you know, it's, it's also like pushing people to. find alternatives for something which has been there for, I don't know, like close to maybe [00:09:00] 25 years now.

Vikas: Yeah. Actually it's, um, it's always, uh, a catch up race between people who know and understand how to do SEO. Um, and they try to.

Vikas: Well, you can call it game the system, but you can also call it, you know, those are the, that is the game, um, is how to rank higher and search yourself page. Um, and you know, the algorithm or, you know, Google and bank, they're constantly changing the algorithm to read out. You know, people who are just doing SEO to rank higher, and they're always trying to figure out how to get the most, uh, useful content to the top.

Vikas: But as long as, you know, it is based on this kind of an algorithm, there will always be people who. You know, try to [00:10:00] reverse engineer or figure out how the algorithm works and then try to, uh, create pages that. users, uh, not users, but the web crawler finds is most relevant rather than what the users think are most relevant.

Vikas: So a lot of this SEO game has come about primarily because the algorithm is in charge. Um, and to some extent I would even Uh, venture to say that that is what has led to a deterioration in content and the quality of content on the Internet. A lot of content is designed primarily with SEO in mind or primarily because of SEO, uh, is.

Vikas: It's designed to have the right keywords, the right back links, the right, all the right, um, things that the, uh, that the algorithm wants to see, uh, just to rank [00:11:00] higher on the search results page and the approach that we're taking by getting, um, the user input directly into the system by, um, By bringing these information providers directly on the platform, uh, is to eliminate the need for SEO.

Vikas: You should not need to design your content for SEO. Um, to appear relevant to a web crawler, rather, if you design your content that appears the most relevant to the end user, and you can build direct connection and affinity with the user base, um, you can eliminate this whole requirement for SEO.

Mehmet: Because this is music to my ears, because I think the same thing that happened with the search engine optimization, it happened, it happened also on, you know, [00:12:00] let's, let's mention this, like also on the social media, right?

Mehmet: So, uh, and, and, you know, the way that the algorithm pushes, you know, people who follow certain things that the algorithm like, let's put it between quote unquote, and then we start to see kind of, you know, low quality, uh, Uh content going, you know more in front of people rather than the relevant one. So this is beautiful now Some people might come and say yeah, because what you're doing is great But now we have a new challenge, which is the content created by AI itself, right?

Mehmet: Yes So how do you think you know this and by the way, like even even people who are like nerds in seo and this stuff So they I didn't find A solid answer from them, even from the traditional SEO perspective, how they're going to do with this very much created, you know, very much, you know, to the point, you know, designed content with everyone having the same [00:13:00] thing.

Mehmet: So how the algorithm going to do? So tell me how you're going to tackle this challenge,

Vikas: right? I think that is a genuine challenge. Um, you know, soon there's going to be more AI generated content on the internet than. Even human generated content. Um, and that is going to be a big challenge for, for traditional web crawling indexing, SEO, it is going to be a big challenge for, um, for the traditional search companies as well.

Vikas: Um, and the, the way to address that, at least, um, on our platform is, you know, we are actively pursuing and bringing. Uh, the the most, uh, curated expert generated content on our platform, and a lot of this platform, a lot of this data, uh, you know, some of it is obviously, you know, [00:14:00] text based, but there is a lot of data that is structured information and structured information in specific verticals has a A specific way of representation.

Vikas: Um, you know, if, for example, you looked at, um, local business restaurants or, or travel information, you know, there is a structured information. There's a structured search. You can also write blogs about it, but, but when, when, when you come to the structured, structured, structured search, um, that is the most relevant for the user in that context.

Vikas: And, and that's why what we are building is intelligent answer cards within our search, where it can not only summarize using AI, but it can also do. Query based. Um, so data sets that plug in directly on our platform, they can be queried and that [00:15:00] information can be presented in a structured way to the, uh, to the user.

Vikas: Now, it, it is always going to be a challenge that, you know, if you're relying primarily on crawling, you are going to be. Um, you are going to face the challenge of regurgitated AI generated content that that is going to be fed to, um, uh, to the, uh, to the web

Vikas: crawlers. I think that is why you, you have to use web crawling, but you have to rely on other mechanisms, such as bringing these expert curated information directly into search.

Mehmet: So for me as, uh, as the end user, right? So from experience perspective, how, you know, like other than getting the relevant information fast to me, like actually I might not be any more [00:16:00] visiting, for example, a website and, you know, scrolling myself into it.

Mehmet: So correct me if I'm wrong in, in, in this because, so that's fine. But for the content creators, you know their main you know usually uh point is to get someone to their website maybe and do kind of You know, there's a call to action that they need to do. So how you're planning to fill this this I

Vikas: mean cycle so, um, so traditional, um content, uh creators or I would call them even knowledge creators uh You know, they have, uh, typically.

Vikas: Produced their knowledge information. They put it on a website and they hope it gets ranked well on, on the search results have been users are typing in their queries. It appears in the search results and [00:17:00] they. Get the clicks to their site. In a lot of cases, they have to spend a lot of money either doing SEO or SEM where they pay to get ranked higher, especially for competitive keywords.

Vikas: So they spend all this time, energy, money to get the clicks to their site. And then they have to recoup those costs and make some money on top of that. So then they're forced to show even more ads or put a paywall in order to, um, to get compensated for that content on our platform. We are opening up search.

Vikas: So we're saying search is no longer this. big black box. It is designed like a platform where different information providers plug in. They actually contribute directly to the search result page, helping improve the user's experience within search. And we monetize that and share that revenue [00:18:00] back with them.

Vikas: with those content creators or knowledge creators or publishers or information providers. So rather than having this friction in the system where you spend time, energy, money to rank higher in the search results, get the clicks to your site, and then monetize it on their site. You can bring that content information directly within the search result page, improve the user's experience, and also monetize that directly on the search result page.

Vikas: So there is an added incentive for these publishers to bring their Uh, knowledge, expertise to the search result page and share revenue back, uh, from the platform, which had been missing so far.

Mehmet: So if I understand it correctly, Vikas, what you're trying to do, you're trying to, let's say, [00:19:00] democratize the search.

Mehmet: So that means It's you don't have to pay money to get discovered and get ranked high. You just bring, you just bring your knowledge, put it, put it on HyperDAR and then people, and you will be able to be discovered by people and you will share the revenue with

Vikas: them. Yes. Yes. So, um, so, so the, the, the main difference here is That you monetize and share your knowledge and expertise directly on the platform on the search platform, which does not exist today.

Vikas: What we're also doing is that we are allowing these knowledge creators. to directly form a relationship with the end users, which does not exist today. Search is not sticky. So if I today rank higher on the search result page, I'll get the traffic. Tomorrow, if the algorithm changes and I'm pushed down, I will no longer get that traffic.[00:20:00]

Vikas: What we are trying to do is build a direct relationship between the knowledge creators and the knowledge seekers. So when you see an answer card that is generated, By an expert, you can like and follow them, um, similar to social media. Um, and you will see more of their, uh, content within your search results.

Vikas: So not only as a user, I'm allowed to customize my search experience, but I can also directly form a bond with those knowledge creators on the search platform. And to some extent it minimizes. The value of search, but we're not about, you know, creating this black box that retains the value, but more of a platform where different providers can plug in and be able to establish direct relationships with the end users.[00:21:00]

Vikas: Users get a better search experience and publishers are able to monetize their content in a more effective way. So in a way, it will revolutionize this, this whole ecosystem.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Now, you know, it's just a, uh, I would say natural question to ask also because so we've seen some other AI players who want to go into this space.

Mehmet: Recently, you know, again, mentioning transparently open AI, you know, trying to be in, in, in that game, uh, Google trying to play it in the reverse way. So, uh, but again, you know, the way you're presenting it is much different than what I'm seeing. So if I want to ask you about like, how do you expect actually the traditional search engines to.

Mehmet: react or maybe, you know, to try to disrupt [00:22:00] themselves, I would say, to stay relevant and keep getting people to their side.

Vikas: So, um, I mean, it's, um, uh, you know, it's, it's a traditional, uh, problem with, uh, with, with a really successful product. Uh, it's very difficult to innovate on it because, um, or to build something totally new.

Vikas: Um, uh, because Of how it might cannibalize an existing revenue stream. Um, and that, that has been the problem with search. I mean, it has been exceedingly successful, um, so much so that, uh, it becomes much more difficult to innovate in this space because there is one 800 pound gorilla that takes up, uh, a big chunk of the market.

Vikas: And at the same time, even for them, it is difficult to innovate because it might. Um, [00:23:00] uh, cannibalize a very successful revenue stream. So I think this will, will play out in the next few years. How, um, you know, Open AI and the, um, uh, the evolution of the LLMs will definitely play a huge role in the evolution of search.

Vikas: Um, I think web crawling and your traditional search will also stay on for, uh, at least for some more time. But I think the angle that we're going after is who is really looking out for the actual information creators for the knowledge creators out there. I think all of these platforms are trying to maximize the value that they can build into the platform or into [00:24:00] their Uh, product, uh, traditional search has been like that.

Vikas: You know, you make a black box where everything is indexed and you have an algorithm spitting out, uh, the, um, uh, the search result page. Nobody else has any control over it. If you have captive eyeballs. You know, you really have the entire ecosystem, uh, under control. The Gen AI models, again, you know, they're reading a lot of content, so they're able to summarize it, which is great for the end user, I would say.

Vikas: But again, You know, who's, who's, uh, rooting for the people who are actually creating that information. If their information is summarized and regurgitated by an AI system, who is really, uh, looking out for them. Now, uh, granted, we use AI as well. We use You know, all the, [00:25:00] um, uh, the popular LLMs, um, open AI cloud crop models, all of them we've, we've integrated into our platform.

Vikas: But I think the differentiator that we're bringing to the table is That we want the knowledge creators to have a first class seat on this table to be able to monetize their information and content, uh, rather than their content just being regurgitated out. And, you know, you're providing a small link or reference to them, which in most cases will not get clicked in, you know, and data shows that traffic to a lot of these publishers has actually dropped, um, you know, since I started summarizing and regurgitating content.

Vikas: So our goal is to make it a platform [00:26:00] for publishers. And information providers actually get a real seat at the table.

Mehmet: That's fantastic. So if you want to go like and foresee the future a little bit, because In general, I'm speaking, like, do you, do you see the traditional search, search engines disappearing, you know, maybe, of course, not in the short term, but maybe, I don't know, after five, 10 years?

Vikas: I think, I think rather than disappearing, they will become more, um, I would say pervasive. So, for example, when you talk to Siri, when you talk to Alexa, when you, um, um, you know, push a button in your car to, um, search for an address or, you know, You know, a place that you want to visit. A lot of those are forms of search.

Vikas: They've just become more pervasive, [00:27:00] um, rather than being open up a browser and go to a site and click a query or type in a query. So I think in the future, they will become more and more. Pervasive and you will stop noticing it as search, uh, whether it is some AR VR headsets that you're wearing or just glasses, um, and talking to them or not even talking to them.

Vikas: They're looking at a particular view and then doing some searches behind the scene to figure out, you know what you're looking at. So search will become just. Very pervasive, uh, in our daily lives. And in the future, I think we will not perceive it as search, uh, search could also be more proactive. Um, you know, depending upon what [00:28:00] your, uh, day looks like, your schedule looks like it can, Automatically be doing some searches behind the scenes to proactively give you information, uh, maybe something that you might need to buy something that, you know, you know, if you're visiting a place, you know, something that you might need to.

Vikas: By in order to, um, uh, have a more comfortable with it. So all of those things I think will be forms of search. They will just not be searches that you type in a box on a website,

Mehmet: right? So it's like kind of this, uh, natural interaction, you know, with, uh, with a machine. Now I want to shift a little bit gears because and, you know, talk a little bit more about, you know, um, the business aspect and, you know, also the entrepreneurship aspect.

Mehmet: So exiting, you know, with a successful IPO after you and, you know, [00:29:00] staying for a long time with Naggaro. Like, of course, like you've, you've, you've captured a lot of experience over there. So first, you know, what are some of the, you know, maybe similar challenges that you faced? there, but now starting, you know, HyperDart and, you know, growing it from, from, from the scratch that, you know, you said, Oh, like it was good.

Mehmet: Like I had this experience there. So now I'm avoiding these challenges here. So if you can share some of these challenges and how you can overcome them.

Vikas: Okay. So first, uh, to set the record straight, I was not at Negaro at the time of the IPO. I had stepped down from the CEO role before that. Uh, but, um, but I remain a shareholder at the company and, um, uh, and I'm, uh, I'm a, uh, big well wisher and, you know, it's my first child.

Vikas: Um, but, um, experiences that, uh, I've taken [00:30:00] from, uh, Negaro. Negaro was, you know, a big part of my career. Um, And, you know, one of, one of the only, um, you know, other jobs that I've done other than HyperDart. Um, and, you know, we, we obviously went through a lot of, uh, challenges. It was a bootstrapped company. Um, we literally started it out of our living room.

Vikas: Um, so I have, you know, I, I just have a lot of experience doing things in a scrappy, um, you know, I would say, financially effective, uh, way that I learned from there. Um, so starting out really, really small and how to, uh, build from there, how to, um, start that flywheel and, and keep it, keep it running. Um, [00:31:00] so, so those, I would say, number one on my list is, you know, how to start things small, how to, um, you know, find that product market fit and then how to accelerate that flywheel.

Vikas: You know, the second thing I would say is, um, you know, at Nagaro, we saw Two major downturns, you know, the, the 2000, um, dot com meltdown, and then the 2008 financial crisis. Um, and, and both of those were, were challenging for the company. Um, the first phase, it was very young company, which had almost, um, you know, a good chance of going out of business.

Vikas: In the second case, it was, you know, a growing company with With, uh, you know, with, uh, I would say, you know, maybe close to a [00:32:00] thousand employees at the time. Um, and, you know, figuring out how to make, uh, payroll when, when things are, are, are going, uh, are crashing around you. I mean, it was very stressful time, but I think what I've learned is more of, you know, how to persevere through challenges.

Vikas: You know, it is somewhat of a, um, you know, I would say stoic, um, uh, philosophy is how to remain calm when things around you are, uh, uh, you know, are falling apart. And, and what I've seen is that, you know, just having that even minded approach to things, um, has really helped me to. To work through some of these challenges [00:33:00] and that's what I'm applying to this.

Vikas: Um, to hyper dark, you know, first of all, we're starting small starting scrappy. We're taking on, you know, like some of the biggest companies and in the world today.

Mehmet: Right.

Vikas: But, but we're, we're doing it on a. on a shoestring budget. Um, and we've built an excellent product. Uh, and that is something that has carried with me from, from my first company.

Vikas: Um, and you know, obviously, you know, plowing through challenges and persevering. I think that's going to be another, um, another big takeaway that, uh, you know, I'll have to apply to this one.

Mehmet: Absolutely. If I want to ask you because you know, about, you know, also scaling to multi billion dollar companies, uh, some founders, you know, they have this ambition, [00:34:00] but sometimes you mentioned perseverance, but there must be also something else that drives you to reach this stage, right?

Mehmet: Because Every founder's dream is to have a unicorn, maybe not all of them, but I mean, when you decide, especially to be in, in, in the space of the tech space. So like how to keep, how to keep the, I'll say the moral high and to make sure that, you know, to, to get to the goal that you want to achieve from your experience.

Vikas: You know, I, I think, um, so I personally, and I think everybody is, is different in that regard. Um, you know, this is not a thought that I give on a day to day basis. Um, you know, we obviously want, uh, HyperDart to be successful, but I want this concept to be successful. I want, um, [00:35:00] you know, the, the vision in my mind is that something like this should exist.

Vikas: Now, whether it is HyperDart or, or something else or somebody else, if this exists, I think I would be fulfilled if some, um, concept like this existed. Um, so that is what, that is what motivates me and drives me. I can forget about HyperTARD, I can forget about everything else. And I don't think about, you know, whether it is going to be a billion dollars or a hundred million or a hundred billion.

Vikas: I, I just do not think about it. It is just one step at a time. Once you, once. I set the vision, the goal that this is what should exist. This is the vision in my mind. And then it is just taking that one step every day. Um, and, and that's what I think about how to make the product better, how to, um, make a platform that is designed for these knowledge creators.

Vikas: What [00:36:00] tools can be built in. You know, I think everything else will just follow from there. If we build something that is true to the vision, true to what we have set out to do, I think everything else will just follow. I don't know how it will happen, but I just know that it will. And in some ways, I consider myself as Um, as a tool of this vision, this is the vision and it is happening through me.

Vikas: Um, and if I didn't do it, somebody else would do it. Uh, but I feel like this is an idea whose time has come and that just needs to exist. So I know it's a long winded answer, but that's how I look at it.

Mehmet: No, absolutely. I'm happy with the answer because, you know, like it's actually what I was expecting from you because it's, you know, believing in something [00:37:00] bigger than you and, you know, like having this passion driven approach of building and forgetting the valuation and focusing more about, you know, solving the end, the end goal, you know, which is, you know, Giving the customers what they deserve to your point.

Mehmet: So, so thank you for, for sharing this. If I want to also ask you, you know, about, you know, let's say, of course, like you have your own mission, but at the same time, you must have set some big goals for HyperDart, right? Yes. Like, for example, in five years from now, HyperDart should be. Yeah.

Vikas: Yeah. Um, and absolutely.

Vikas: I mean, there's, there's, there's. There's charts and projections and, and all of that. And we want to be among the top, you know, three, four, five, uh, search engines on the market, uh, you know, in the next three, four years. [00:38:00] And. And that, that is, that is definitely a goal, but, but to achieve that, it's not like, okay, you know, okay.

Vikas: How do we go about acquiring this user versus that user? And how do we, I mean, we have all of the marketing plans and everything laid out, but a lot of it is designed around. How to get the best knowledge creators on the platform, how to get, how to provide them the right incentives and to be, uh, a player or to be a platform that they actually want to share their knowledge and information on.

Vikas: And I think everything else will just follow from there. So So our goal, our mission is to get the most, um, you know, curated, [00:39:00] best knowledge creators on the platform so that We can produce the best answer cards, AI results, web crawled results, what have you, for the users. And, you know, if you can get that side of the equation, uh, under control, then I think the users, the adoption and everything else will just follow from there.

Vikas: So we do have grand visions. We want to be among the top, top Five search results, search engines in the next few years. And I think we can, we can definitely achieve that.

Mehmet: Fantastic. Uh, because like this, I always like also to ask this traditional question, maybe we touched base a little bit, but like your second time founder, right?

Mehmet: So a lot of. My, you know, audience are kind in the [00:40:00] first time founder, um, uh, space and some of them, you know, because I receive a lot of, uh, you know, messages and, and feedback from people who listen, who are thinking to become founders, right? Um, so if you want from someone who became second time founder, like you said, you know, and so always, you know, people tell me, yeah.

Mehmet: So if someone is starting second time, third time, it becomes like. Easy by the time for not easy in the sense very easy, but I mean you learned it all so it's all Starts with being the first time founder and the successful first time founder So if you want to like give us, you know, some some of the wisdom that you have Collected over the years, especially for the first time founders in the tech space.

Vikas: So, uh, let me first address the second time founder situation second time. I don't think it becomes easier I think you cannot do anything else. You're Uh in a way unemployable, uh [00:41:00] after you've been an entrepreneur for so long. Uh, I guess you um, uh, you forget how to Work for somebody else maybe I I don't know.

Vikas: Uh, You But, uh, but second time, I think it's just, uh, you know, because you don't know how to do, how to, how it would be any other way. Uh, but first time, you know, I became an entrepreneur in my mid twenties, um, a few years out of, out of college. Uh, but I had always wanted to be an entrepreneur, even, you know, When I was a teenager, I wanted to have my own business.

Vikas: And some people have that very early on. Uh, and if you do, then it's actually really easy. I think becoming an entrepreneur in your twenties, you might think, Oh, I don't have money and all there's plenty of venture money out there. It's much easier when you start out [00:42:00] early in your career because, um, um, you know, because, you know, you, you're not bogged down by a lot of self limiting beliefs.

Vikas: You. Feel like, you know, there is a different kind of energy and enthusiasm that you have at that time that you can just, uh, you know, you just have that feeling of unstoppability and unbreakability and, uh, that, that you, it's, it's much easier, I would say. Um, I think later on, uh, and, and for those, for your audience who fall into that bracket, I would just say.

Vikas: You know, just jump into it. The most of the learning will happen, you know, after you've become an entrepreneur, rather than before, uh, you're not going to, um, you're not going to learn entrepreneurship to become [00:43:00] an entrepreneur. You are going to jump the deep end and, and life will teach you how to be an entrepreneur.

Vikas: Um, I think for, for people who are later on, you In their careers, you know, once you have a comfortable job, that's paying all the bells and everything, you know, everything gets into this whole cycle, you know, whether you call it monotonous cycle or whatever, but it becomes much more difficult to break out of that.

Vikas: And for, for people in that, Uh, uh, in that, uh, situation, um, I think you, it is, it is definitely more difficult for them to break out of that cycle and, and okay, you know, now I'm going to become an entrepreneur. Uh, but there've been a lot of success stories in [00:44:00] that as well. And, you know, again, I'm not, I'm not a good, uh, example of that because I haven't lived through that.

Vikas: But, but what I've seen is that, um, You know, it typically requires more, uh, planning, uh, most of the entrepreneurs who have had successful careers. Enterprises before, um, you know, the, they build upon their knowledge and experience that they've gained there, and then come up with the next idea in that space and, and typically, you know, you would not be, If that is the situation where you're at, then you would not be that kind of a scrappy entrepreneur working out of garage.

Vikas: You know, you would typically already get together with a team that, you know, can take it forward. Uh, most of those entrepreneurs, um, start off with, uh, you know, venture backing, [00:45:00] In the bank. Um, you know, even even when they when they when they're ready to quit. So I think you you build a lot on the experience that you've gained from your job.

Vikas: You try to build. The next step in that and do it, just do it outside the enterprise, just because it's much more efficient to do it that way. Um, I don't know what, what else I can, I can tell the audience about becoming, um, becoming an entrepreneur. I, I think it's not something that you learn from courses.

Vikas: It's not something that you, you know, a lot of the learning will happen, you know, once you. Decide to take the plunge, then you will actually become, uh, you know, because life is going to throw you around.

Mehmet: Right. Absolutely. [00:46:00] Absolutely. Because, you know, and, uh, you know, to your point, I've seen you, the both models, you know, I'm passionate about startups and entrepreneurs and.

Mehmet: Tech founders. So yeah, to your point, like both models, but I can see what you're talking about in terms of, you know, the young ones and the crazy thing that they will be ready to do because they are younger. You know, I'm not saying they are, they don't care, but maybe still they don't have even family commitments.

Mehmet: They don't have large bills to pay and they feel this freedom to do whatever they want. We saw the successful examples and we saw the successful examples also from people who. To your point, work in large, you know, companies and you know, they shifted maybe even between companies and also they, they, they, they came out with great things.

Mehmet: And thank you for bringing this because you know, some people, they think, Oh, I need to be only young to be a successful entrepreneur. And then people know, actually you can start being [00:47:00] an entrepreneur when you are working even in a large enterprise. So thank you for bringing this because, because like, You know, we we we we're almost coming to an end So any final thought you want to share with us and where people can get in touch with you and find out more about hyperdark

Vikas: Um, sure hyperdark is a type of dot com.

Vikas: Um, it's easy to find you can try some searches there Um You can, uh, we have a browser extension that you can install. It will change your default search to HyperDart, uh, but try it out, uh, and see how you like it. Um, right now, a lot of, um. The results that you might see would be similar to what you would find on Google or Bing, but, you know, that is our V1 of the product.

Vikas: We are onboarding a lot more knowledge creators onto the ecosystem, and that will change [00:48:00] in the coming months as we roll out new features. Um, You know, people can find me primarily on LinkedIn, I would say, um, I don't use much other, uh, social media, uh, but LinkedIn, you know, if you type in my name and HyperDart, you'll, you'll most likely find me there.

Vikas: Um, any final thoughts? Um, I would say, you know, for people who are looking for, you know, more. You know, to become more entrepreneur, entrepreneurial, I would say a lot of, uh, the limitations that we think about are actually in our own heads. I think we are, we, a lot of us have, including myself, have self limiting beliefs that, oh, only this is possible, only this can be done.

Vikas: [00:49:00] And a lot of times it is just overcoming. Those self limiting beliefs that, you know, open the doors for, for new possibilities. So I'm a big believer in, you know, controlling the mind and how the mind thinks and how the mind then has an effect on both our bodies and our environments and the situations around us.

Vikas: Um, so whatever form of, uh, meditation or, or, uh, You know, control of your own mind that you can practice and every person is different. So they might have their own journeys, but, uh, but I do believe that a lot can be changed by just being in control of our own minds.

Mehmet: Thank you for bringing this, Vikas, at the end, because this is really Something that I'm big believer also in it.

Mehmet: Um, you know, every, every obstacle you think that it's an [00:50:00] obstacle is actually existing in our mind only. So unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't say unfortunately. So I discovered this little bit late, but now I try to tell people the same thing you mentioned, like, You know, it's only cannot happen because you don't want it to happen, right?

Mehmet: Especially when it comes to Starting business, you know starting any any endeavor. It's not only like about business and company. So thank you very much And you know, i'm i'm, you know Discovered also like, you know, maybe late in my uh in my Professional and personal life about, you know, uh, mindfulness and, you know, being, you know, sitting and, you know, have this deep, deep thinking using meditation.

Mehmet: So I encourage also people. So have a look if they are not already doing that so and uh for the links you Just mentioned because so this for the audience you can find them in the show notes You don't need to go and look around or make the life easy at the end because thank you [00:51:00] very much Really? I enjoyed the discussion and and you know the conversation with you today and I wish you all the best with hyper dark You know, and I believe you know, this is my personal opinion We need something, you know, which is personal and what I liked about You know, what you're doing is you're bringing, although like people talks about the AI and the, you know, all these things, but you're trying to bring the personal touch again to the search.

Vikas: Mm, yes.

Mehmet: And, and, and getting, you know, what the real social, not the hype social aspect of it, you know, and, you know, I appreciate, you know, the time you gave me and it was like early for you in the morning. Um, thank you for, for being with me on the show because, and this is, you want to say something?

Vikas: No, uh, I was just gonna say, uh, thank you so much for having me.

Vikas: It was an absolute pleasure.

Mehmet: Thank you, Vikas. And this is for the audience. So as I mentioned, all the links are in the show notes. And, um, you know, if you just discovered our podcast [00:52:00] by luck or, you know, someone told you, thank you for passing by. Give us a thumb up and you know, share it with your friends and colleagues.

Mehmet: We're trying to make an impact here And this is for the people who keep coming back and send me their requests and you know suggestions and feedback Thank you for doing so keep them coming I read them all and I try to get back to every single one of you who messaged me Thank you very much for tuning in and we'll be again very soon.

Mehmet: Thank you. Goodbye.

Vikas: Thank you