#431 From Fear to Founding: Sophia Matveeva’s Journey and Lessons for Non-Tech Entrepreneurs

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased joining me, Sophia Matveeva. Sophia, the way I love to do it is I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves. Just I do a small teaser to the audience. We're [00:01:00] going to talk about a topic which I'm passionate about and people will ask me, are you passionate about everything?

Mehmet: Yes. Anything related to technology and enabling people with tech is something I am passionate about. But Sophia, thank you for being here with me today. I will leave it to you to introduce yourself.

Sophia: Mehmet and lovely listeners of the CTO show. First of all, happy new year. So this is still January 2025. So I think it still counts.

Sophia: And I hope that your year's off to a great start. So I'm Sophia Matveeva and I run a company called Tech for Non Techies. So if you are not technical, then Hi, you're my perfect audience. My aim is to help smart non technical professionals succeed in the digital age. Specifically, for example, if you're a non technical founder, if you have an idea for a tech business, but you're not a coder yourself, then my company is going to help you learn what you need to do.

Sophia: Or for example, if you want to work in a corporate that's going through digital transformation, you need to know how to work with developers, [00:02:00] Without becoming a developer yourself. So we cover that on the Tech Fun on Techies podcast and also through our programming. And also I've taught my courses with the government of Bahrain with Tamkeen at Oxford University at Techstars and so on.

Mehmet: Great. And thank you Sofya for being with me here today. And yeah, we're still in the first month of the year and uh, it's a good. Uh, you know start, you know to also inspire people who want to become founders or they want you know to to start the journey You just mentioned so It's a you know, kind of a traditional question for me, but I would say You know, what was?

Mehmet: The main thing that inspired you, Sophia, to start, you know, what you're doing. I mean, there must be something that you've noticed, you know, there must be something that happened, you know, where you decide, okay, hold on. I think I need to do something for these non techies that they want to start something.

Mehmet: So, you know, kind of the [00:03:00] story behind, you know, uh, tech for non techies.

Sophia: Well, it's really, I can, um, it's two words, shame and fear. So that's, that's really the origin story. So I myself am a non technical founder. So I began my career working in the media and then I worked in a private equity firm in London.

Sophia: So that's kind of high finance. And then I got my MBA at Chicago Booth, which is one of the world's top business schools. It's where Barack Obama was teaching before he went into politics. And so I really understood business. But I didn't know anything about technology. And frankly, I thought at this top American business school, you know, where I paid 180, 000 for my degree, I was going to learn something about it.

Sophia: Right. If you pay that much, but what ended up happening is that during my business school Studies, I had an idea for a technology startup and I got a team together and I even managed to raise some money, but I literally did not know anything about tech. I didn't [00:04:00] know what a backend was. I didn't know what a front end was.

Sophia: I didn't know what an API was. And, you know, when you're non technical. And you're speaking to tech people, they're using all of these terms, and you literally, you don't know, you don't know what they mean, and when you're kind of in this position of seniority, you know, like when you're a founder, or maybe you're a corporate leader, and people are using all this terminology, you're kind of in a difficult political situation, because you're wondering, Is it okay to show that I don't know what's going on?

Sophia: So I was terrified. I was thinking, Oh my God, everybody knows what's going on. I don't. And so I ended up learning all of this on the job as a non technical founder, but it was very difficult. And I started writing about my journey as a non technical founder in Forbes. So I had a Forbes column. And as I was writing what I was learning, These articles on what non technical founders need to know about tech or what digital leaders need to [00:05:00] know about tech.

Sophia: These articles did really well, you know, thousands upon thousands of people read them and I thought, oh my God, I'm not alone. There are other people who are professionals, but not tech people who want to know what's going on. And if you're a professional, but not a tech person, you're usually told to do a coding course.

Sophia: And I do think a coding course for a bit is a good idea, like a short course. But, you know, if your main talent is law or your main talent is communication and your main talent is sales, you know, you don't want to do a six month full time coding course. That's not a good use of your time. It's not a good use of your talent.

Sophia: It makes people feel stupid a lot of the time and also doesn't actually give you the information that you need. And so. So, out of these articles, um, London Business School asked me to teach their students, because a lot of their students either wanted to become founders of tech companies, so they had tech ideas, but no coding skills, or they wanted to work in digital [00:06:00] transformation, you know, companies like McKinsey, or work in lead digital transformation in large corporates.

Sophia: But if you don't know anything about tech, that's impossible, right? And so that's literally the how the company started. So it started with me going through this situation of being terrified to kind of show that I don't know what's going on in a world where everybody's using tech jargon.

Mehmet: Um, that's interesting.

Mehmet: Uh, Sophia, because I know a lot of people that, you know, you're not alone. Of course, you're not alone. Like many times I used to hear, Oh, just if I knew, like, for example, how to do this, I gotta make like something, you know, super cool. Now, after you, you know, I'm curious about, so after you, you decided to go this path and, you know, of course, like you found a lot of people who are interested.

Mehmet: So. You mentioned about the fear. So What [00:07:00] was your formula to break the fear of these people who? Are keen, you know to start but still, you know, they keep you know, like all of us. Sometimes we have this Imposter syndrome where we think oh like, you know They're gonna mock me or maybe I would not be able to to do it like in a proper way So far from the tech As an educator like how you manage to to let these people break, you know the barriers of fear

Sophia: So first of all, I actually tell them not to break the barriers of fear Because well, have you heard of this book?

Sophia: It's called feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, so that's That's my motto, because if we spend lots of time trying to negotiate with our fear, then first of all, we are spending our time on not working, right? That's not necessarily productive, but also a lot of the time our fear wins. And the reason why we have this fear, it's actually a very good, you know, evolutionary reason.

Sophia: So the reason why [00:08:00] we're afraid of kind of going outside the herd is that we're afraid When, you know, thousands of years ago, we all used to live in forests and jungles and caves, we all had to stick together. And so if you go outside of the tribe, or if you are cast out of the tribe for doing something different, or for being different, then essentially you could lose your access to resources and you could literally die.

Sophia: This is why people are terrified of public speaking. This is why people are so, you know, this is why we're all so concerned with what people think about us. And so, you know, if this kind of fear is literally built into our genes, I think trying to negotiate with it is a useless exercise. So my stance is accept that you will feel this fear, accept that it will be uncomfortable, but It's not going to kill you.

Sophia: You know, what we need to learn to differentiate between is fear. That is literally fear about our lives. [00:09:00] You know, if you're work, if you're walking down a dark alleyway and there are some scary guys, okay, be afraid, you know, make a run for it. But if you're afraid of getting a definition wrong, You know, you're not going to die if you're going to get it wrong.

Sophia: So understand, is this fear that you should listen to, or is this just this kind of irrational fear that's actually stopping you from living your dreams? And if it's this irrational fear, just get on with it. Don't wait for it to go away because it probably won't. I mean, mine still hasn't, but here I am running a Techies and talking to you.

Mehmet: That's great. So by the way, like just. To, to, to, you know, uh, I would say to second what you said, Sophia. So I come from a technical background and, you know, the similar thing happened when I shifted into the business side of the things, because I used to think, Hey, Hey, like only these, you know, guys with the suits and with [00:10:00] the, you know, a, uh, Samsonites, they would be able to talk business and they would be able to think, you know, like strategically.

Mehmet: So I think to your point, you know, this happens from the two sides of, of the, Of the realm, I would say, but I want to come back to what you're doing currently. And you have like two target audiences. So the people who want to be founders and the people who want to be, you know, having career in kind of everything happening today with the digital transformation, I would start with, you know, first with this, with this segment.

Mehmet: So

Mehmet: tech people are very famous, me included, you know, back in the days, of Of trying to. make also the things looks complex by putting bunch of jargons, you know, showing the things are so complex, so they don't let someone else, you know, you know, come in and understand. So [00:11:00] I'm curious to know what, like, some of the You know the materials or like maybe some of the tools Like you have utilized and you saw It gave good results for these folks who are non techies to go into the world of digital transformation And you know getting everything, you know to where we see it today with like, like someone, uh, working for these big, uh, big four, like let's say consultancies.

Mehmet: And then they go to meet some customers and they can talk the same language. So what was the formula of success for this?

Sophia: Really? It's about. Making things very simple and going back to stories. And there was somebody I was really, really inspired by. So when I was doing my MBA at Chicago Booth, one of my professors is a guy called professor Per Stromberg.

Sophia: And he literally sits on the Nobel committee for economics. So he is one of the people who decides who gets the Nobel prize for economics. And he taught [00:12:00] the corporate finance class. And I remember before I went into his class, I had so much fear because I thought, Oh my god, I am, not only am I very far from, you know, getting the Nobel Prize for Economics, I'm not going to get anything that he is going to say, you know, he's the super famous professor, he awards these very complicated prizes to these complicated, for these complicated ideas, I'm I'm not going to, I'm not going to survive in his class.

Sophia: And actually, not only did I end up getting an A, but his class ended up being one of my favorites. And the reason why is that he was able to distill very complex ideas into really simple things. And he just got rid of complicated language. And. And he just used very, very simple concepts. And another thing that he did is he told stories.

Sophia: So he would tell stories about, you know, corporate finance, which was like, okay, like there is this company, this company is in trouble. This [00:13:00] is why this company is in trouble. This is how this founder is feeling. Okay. When he goes to the bankers, these are the options. What options do you think are going to be the best ones?

Sophia: Given the frameworks that I've taught you. Um, His example really showed me that actually in every big successful industry, you have the gatekeepers and the gatekeepers are very interested in you not really understanding what's going on. So finance is very guilty of this and tech is very guilty of this.

Sophia: Basically finance and tech have invented their own language. And honestly, I think, you know, some people are kind of Using it by default, but I do think that there's a bit of this, like, okay, let's invent all of these difficult concepts. So then essentially we can keep, we can keep others out and we can make all the money and we can keep all the power.

Sophia: And Per Stromberg really showed to me that actually the concepts behind the [00:14:00] jargon are pretty simple. And if you can understand, you know, if you have basic common sense, And you can, you basically keep on asking, what does this mean? Why does this happen? Why do we need to do this? Why does this need to exist?

Sophia: You can figure out pretty much anything. And so, when I was trying to figure out, you know, what is a server? What, like, what is a database? What needs to happen in a database? How is a different, how is a data scientist different from a data analyst? I just kept on going back to the way he would explain things to me.

Sophia: And I thought, okay. If I can do what he did, and I can give this first of all to myself, and I can understand these concepts for myself, and then I can explain them to other people, then actually we can all feel more powerful. Because what Professor Tromberg did for me is that he made me [00:15:00] feel very powerful and knowledgeable when I'm sitting across the table from, you know, a senior hedge fund manager.

Sophia: Because essentially when I don't understand something, I'm no longer afraid to ask. And if their explanation isn't very good, I no longer feel like, Oh, I'm the stupid one. I think, well, you're either not explaining it because you don't want me to understand, or you're just not a very good communicator. And I do think that when it comes to essentially dealing with people in power, and I do think that today's the people in power today, a lot of them are tech people.

Sophia: Um, not only do you need to actually just. Some concept, but you need to have the confidence to ask and you need to have the confidence to carry on asking because, you know, no matter what I teach you, you know, we cover lots and lots of concepts on the Tech from Techies podcast and in our courses, but no matter what I teach, you know, In six months, there will be a new concept.

Sophia: In another six months, there'll be [00:16:00] another concept. So what I really want people to understand is basic terminology, but also I want them to have the confidence to ask questions and the confidence to know that if they don't understand something after having received an explanation, it's because the explanation isn't a good one.

Sophia: It's not because you're stupid.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Um, so the way I taught myself, uh, of overcoming this is to think always that the person I'm asking, uh, one day he was beginner or she was beginner. So the moment I think that these guys were not born with, you know, knowing everything, I said, okay, if they were able to, to learn it, because they choose it maybe as their career, but at some stage, they were also not, uh, You know aware about these terms and they had to learn it.

Mehmet: So same thing for me So if if I was able to learn what I am now professional at I can go and learn again So, you know kind [00:17:00] of a mindset that I I put for myself, which is 100 true You mentioned something sophia, which is also like I would say thought provoking now we keep hearing In in in the business world that every company is a technology company.

Mehmet: And now you just said Every person now is a Techie person somehow do you think this is because you know technology became so much, you know Immersed in our lives so we can't escape anymore and saying hey, no, no, i'm not the technology guy Call someone to help is that the reason or is it also all that's happening around us from You know these new emerging technologies like ai and you know For example like funny enough when I speak to people who are into blockchain and cryptos So they start to explain to me and they are non tech people by the way.

Mehmet: So do you think like these movements also are helping us to make everyone a techie person. [00:18:00]

Sophia: Well, I think let's actually touch on AI because right now we are recording this at the beginning of 2025. And so everybody's asking me, okay, what are the trends that I should be focusing on? On what are the skills that I need to learn?

Sophia: And one of the skills is learning How to use AI for whatever it is that you're doing. So that's, that's definitely one of the skills that I would recommend for everybody. And so does this make everybody a technologist in some ways? Well, kind of yes and no, right? Because most professions have been changed by the digital age.

Sophia: So let's take kind of the least technical, let's, or not technical, let's take the least software profession in the world. Let's say, you know, I'm in Russia right now. So let's take ballerinas, right? Ballet is a really big thing in Russia. And so if you are a prima ballerina, um, you are kind of probably not going to be that bothered about, you know, making an app [00:19:00] for your ballet.

Sophia: Because fundamentally your art is still dance. That's, that's the thing that you're focusing on. So in that profession, you're not really that bothered about learning software skills, but let's kind of take it a bit, a step further. What if you are the theater manager, if you are the manager of the Bolshoi theater, you know, the most famous theater in Moscow, then, okay, you're actually going to be really, really interested in digital transformation.

Sophia: The core thing that you're selling is you're still selling ballet and opera. So those are the still the same things, you know, probably the same things that were popular in the 18th century, right? But the way people can buy tickets, the way people can now interact, you know, now there are lots of, um, ballet companies that are actually streaming, like you can buy streaming tickets.

Sophia: Um, during COVID, I remember I was watching ballet and opera performances on YouTube, right? So, You're actually really interested in, okay, [00:20:00] how can I use these technologies to make my mission go further? So, how can I use these technologies to help more people watch the ballet? And also, how can I help, how can I use these technologies to make more money for my theatre?

Sophia: So, the reason why I wanted to give this example of something that's Very, very old, you know, a theater, a dance theater, that's a very old concept. But if you combine this very old concept with new technologies, what you're doing is you are not replacing what makes that thing great, right? You are not replacing a ballerina with a robot, because I don't know about you, I don't want to see a robot dance.

Sophia: I want to see human creativity. But you are using technology to scale your audience, to make your processes more efficient, and to essentially make more money. So in this case, I would recommend to everybody that the way you look at, you know, becoming a tech person [00:21:00] today is don't replace what you're really good at.

Sophia: You know, if you are a fantastic lawyer, Learn how you could use Claude or ChatGPT or whatever LLM you have at work. Learn how to use that to make yourself more effective. If you're a content creator, okay, use technologies to help you come up with great ideas. If you're a founder, Figure out how you can use AI for prototyping.

Sophia: That's one of my favorite things to do today, but learning to become a tech person debt today is not about replacing your skills or your talents, kind of like the ballerina, you know, she's still the ballerina. It's about taking that. Wonderful talent that you already have and using technology to reach more people to be more efficient and To make more money.

Mehmet: That's you know, again thought provoking at least for me, I would say Especially [00:22:00] the you know, the ballet example that you just gave and no, I don't want to see robots dancing, honestly Yeah, I know of course like and this is This is something we all know, um, that AI is a tool, as you mentioned, to give us kind of superpowers.

Mehmet: So we can do what we are passionate about in a much more efficient and cost efficient and also faster way, which is true. You mentioned about the prototyping. So, Two years ago, uh, of course I come from technical background, but not coding. So I know, I know some coding, but I'm not a coder. So, but still I wanted to see how this would look like for someone who's non techie.

Mehmet: So this is why I went and I, you know, found about the no code and building apps with no code and so on. And I said, Oh, wow, like this is really revolutionary because [00:23:00] To your point, someone with non technical background, if they get the concept and they get the workflow, like, okay, I need to have this. And then that, so they can build a working app until, uh, and, you know, just for the transparency, we are aiding this, like, probably this is, will be on, on this channel.

Mehmet: third week of Jan. Um, so we're recording on the 6th of Jan just for the transparency to the audience. So last week, which is the first week of, of 2025, I decided to go and look at what AI can do for prototyping. And I was, you know, I, I lived my second shock. I would say after the no code shock, because I start to see these tools like cursor, replit, Uh, V0, like there's plenty of, I'm going to try to put them also in the show notes.

Mehmet: And you just give a prompt to the machine and the machine will give you, almost of course after a few fighting, [00:24:00] it gives you a working prototype. So from, from your perspective, Sophia, like how this, you know, using the AI for prototyping will take us further to allow more entrepreneurs. To show up now, especially if we can't focus also because I know you're, you know, you focus your work with with the, you know, folks here in the Middle East, mainly Bahrain and Techstar and so on.

Mehmet: So from your perspective, how this will transform our region of having more founders also coming from a tech background?

Sophia: Well, I am obsessed with these tools and I'll give you, I'll tell you why. So when I started my first tech company, and this was about eight years ago now. So we had an idea for an app and, you know, for people who have never gone on this app journey.

Sophia: So if you have an idea for an app, the first thing you need to do is to create a prototype, which is a design. So it's not something that contains code in it. It's [00:25:00] basically kind of like a bunch of pictures. Uh, tied together of what your app is going to look like and how people could use it. And when I first started creating my first ever prototype, eight years ago, I worked with a professional design firm and they use professional design software.

Sophia: And it took us two weeks to create essentially two prototypes that we tested. So two weeks, and the cost was 35, 000. Now guess what founders in my program are doing that. Like how much it costs them and how long it takes them. Non technical founders. So, uh, this year, actually last year, 2024, I have created two programs for, with TAMKEEN and TAMKEEN is the government of Bahrain's labor fund.

Sophia: And these programs are tech for non technical founders. And in these programs, founders have literally gone from having an idea To creating a prototype that they can test with users, [00:26:00] it usually costs them no money. So literally it's free because there are a bunch of free trials from these tools that you can get.

Sophia: So it's, it's free. So for me, it was 35, 000 for them. It's zero. And in terms of time, it literally takes them a day or half a day. And it took me two weeks. So what does this mean? Well, there are good things and bad things about it. So one of the good things is that if anybody listening to this, if any of you have an idea for an app and you've been sitting on it and now you're thinking, okay, it's January, it's 2025, I'm going to get on with it.

Sophia: You have no excuse. Honestly, you really don't because you can get a free trial with Galileo or UI wizard or any of the tools that Mehmet mentioned and basically create something and then take this prototype and test it with your target users. You've got no excuse. So the good thing is that all of these non [00:27:00] technical people who understand problems, you know, who see opportunities that technical people don't see because, you know, if you're working and, I don't know, shipping, but you're not a software person, you might be able to see opportunities and how to optimize a process.

Sophia: And you're thinking, well, I need some sort of tech person to help you make it. Now you can actually get quite far without them with these prototyping tools. So the good thing is that people who really have domain expertise and people who really understand the problem and people who really understand cultural nuances are going to have more opportunity to create tech startups.

Sophia: And I think this is a It's especially wonderful for the Middle East, because what I often see is that frankly, you know, Western and American companies are coming to the Middle East and sometimes, I mean, sometimes it's great because, you know, we're all using Instagram in the Middle East, right? So sometimes it's great, but sometimes they are a bit tone deaf and kind of [00:28:00] culturally unaware.

Sophia: So, actually having founders who really understand local problems, who understand the local culture, having these founders. Um, able to create prototypes and test their ideas for no money or for very cheap is wonderful. So that's the good thing. But then there was the bad thing. The bad thing is that maybe I'm kind of curious about your experience is that what I found is that you can get a really good looking prototype of an app.

Sophia: Like it can look really nice. It can. Have you found that?

Mehmet: Yeah.

Sophia: Yeah. Yeah. Like the design looks. Professional, like it's, you know, made by designers at Apple, but just because it looks nice. And just because it has all of these screens doesn't mean that anybody wants to use it. And the feeling, honestly, the feeling that I had, I remember when I first created one just to test it, I was like, this is it.

Sophia: This is amazing. Like [00:29:00] this is brilliant. I am a genius because you kind of get so excited about it. And so this means that lots and lots of founders are going to be essentially coming up with very pretty apps that have absolutely no chance of surviving in the market just because, you know, they're going to look nice, but just because it looks nice.

Sophia: Doesn't mean that anybody wants it. So the fundamentals of entrepreneurship remain the same, you know, whether it was entrepreneurship 2000 years ago or today, the idea is the same. Are you solving a real problem? Are you solving this problem for people who have the money to pay for it? If you answer these two questions, and yes, you are solving a real problem.

Sophia: And yes, you are solving it for a market that can pay for it. And then you use AI tools for prototyping. And then, you know, you could actually export your AI prototype, say, into a no code [00:30:00] tool like Bubble. Then, okay, off you go. You can have a really successful business without the same kind of investment that you needed before.

Sophia: But I, I just think that because you can make these things, these pretty things quite easily, I think there'll be a lot of people with half baked ideas who create something and then get very disappointed when nobody wants it.

Mehmet: Absolutely. And you know, what you just explained, Sophia, is what we call it, the product market fit.

Mehmet: And, you know, And I tell, I used to do this mistake. Oh, lots of time.

Sophia: Oh, I mean, we all did, right? Because we got, we get so excited.

Mehmet: Yeah. So I want it to be the best looking app. And I tell people it's not the best looking app that wins or whatever idea it's the one that works, right? So regardless, like, does it have dark mode?

Mehmet: No dark mode. This is the last thing you think about, right? So you think about Solving a problem. And yes, [00:31:00] so majority of the no code. I mean, of course. they need to market themselves. So the main thing that they do, which is kind of the gamification is like, you can build beautifully designed landing pages or like beautifully designed web apps, which is okay.

Mehmet: We need the aesthetic part of it. Don't get me wrong. But to your point, we need to make sure that we are solving a problem, right? So, and it happened to me, the good news is, and again, to your point, Sophia, is that AI would help you in this because I did an experiment With one of the tools. So I'm not affiliated with any just for people to know.

Mehmet: So I said, just at the beginning, I need the skeleton of the app. I just need, you know, a login register and then a dashboard once the users log in. And then after that, I start to say, okay, how we can make this more beautiful. Just that. And it did like some cool stuff. So, you know, [00:32:00] again, people ask me sometime, do I need to understand, you know, the jargons there?

Mehmet: No, you don't need to understand the jargons and the no code tools, even before AI that I used to use. And I can mention some, again, I'm not affiliated with any. So bubble, the one that Sophia, you just mentioned. So I played with it. There is a, if you are into mobile apps, there is an, a, a, uh, A company called Adalo does good, fantastic job in designing mobile apps.

Mehmet: Software, if you are building kind of directories and if you're building, uh, you know, like simple, I would say even by the way, it's very good for internal use as well. If you're building like internal portals, it's perfect. So you don't need to know code, zero code, and you can design still beautifully, uh, applications.

Mehmet: But so where are we going with this next Sophia? So because when I'm asking you this question, I want to reach a place where you're going to lead us to. So I'm a non tech founder. [00:33:00] I have a problem. I asked a lot of people, you know, around me. Do you have the same problem? Yes. If I come up with a solution, would you pay for it?

Mehmet: Yes. How much are you willing to pay? Let's say 5 a month. Fine. I built the prototype. Now I need to scale. I need to take this to the next level. If I have, and I'm asking you from experience, by the way, if I have built this, Can I go and seek investment? Like do you think investors will fund founders building tech startups coming from a non tech background?

Sophia: So first of all, there's a step that I want to make sure people don't skip. So when you make a prototype. The next thing you need to do is test it with your target market. Do not do anything before you have tested it. So I like to call your target market, the boss. So I always say like, because [00:34:00] founders say to me, Oh, well, you know, will this work or will, will that not work?

Sophia: And I say, I don't know. You've got to ask the boss. I'm not the boss. The boss are your customers. Right. And like in. In your, in work, you know, if you're working in corporate, your boss, even if they're a nightmare, are actually going to be way nicer to you than the market because, you know, they have to give you severance pay, right?

Sophia: And also, you know, they, they probably can't write you horrible emails, like swearing. You know, HI will have a word with them. Whereas customers, they're not going to give you a notice period. And if they think that what you're doing is rubbish, they will not hold back. So, uh, you gotta, so when you make a prototype, what I want to tell people to do is look at the Google Ventures methodology of testing.

Sophia: So according to Google Ventures, if you test your prototype, With just five people, there's five people uncover 85 percent of the errors in your product. And so you don't need big data. You don't [00:35:00] need thousands of people. Get a prototype, test it with five people. Based on that feedback, either pivot, iterate, adjust your prototype.

Sophia: You know, if then the tests go well, then you could either create something with no code tools. Or you could work with developers and, you know, then you could potentially seek funding. So then let's get to your question, but will investors fund non technical founders? Well, so investors have been funding non technical founders forever, basically.

Sophia: So one of the most famous non technical founders is the guy who built this. And this is an iPhone I'm holding in my hand, right? So Steve Jobs. He's probably one of the most famous non technical founders in the world, right? And he has literally changed the world of technology. And if you read Walter Isaacson's biography of Steve Jobs, you can see that he was really interested in art.

Sophia: He was really interested in how artists and technology can combine to [00:36:00] create something wonderful. So, you know, he, he got lots of funding. Another founder I would invite you to look at is Jack Ma of Alibaba. And I find him even more inspiring because Jack Ma didn't see his first, his, his first computer until he was in his thirties.

Sophia: So he was a teacher of English in China. And the first time he saw a computer, he was around 30 years old. And now he is literally one of the people who has changed the tech landscape, who's changed the global landscape. Right. So. Non technical founders have been getting funding for forever. And if we look closer in the Middle Eastern region, I always, uh, recommend that people look at Mumsworld and the founder, Mona Attaya, right?

Sophia: She is a non technical founder and look, I mean, she's definitely made my life much easier. And so I'm really, really grateful that she got funded. So the thing is, investors have always funded non technical [00:37:00] founders. But it has been more difficult for non technical founders to get funding. So it's both, right?

Sophia: You can, you've always been able to do it, but usually it's more difficult. And the reason, one of the reasons why it's more difficult is that there's this firm called unreason Horowitz, that kind of Silicon Valley royalty. And they have been very public about their belief that it's much easier to teach a tech person business than to teach a business person tech.

Sophia: Um, because, you know, and also to be fair, they have had a lot of success with this belief, right? They backed Mark Zuckerberg. They, so like, you know, their thesis has really worked for them. And so investors have literally been like, okay, we just need to find another Mark Zuckerberg and then we'll all be rich.

Sophia: Basically. So there is this myth, however, what I would say to non technical [00:38:00] founders, A, just because it's difficult, it's not impossible that you need to be aware of this stigma. I don't believe the stigma is fair, but it does exist. I don't think it's going to go away completely. I think things are changing, but like, is it going to go away in 2025 completely?

Sophia: No, right? It's a bit like gender equality. We kind of know that, like, it's a good thing. We kind of know racism is a bad thing. Is it going to be completely eradicated in 2025? I mean, I wish, but it's not going to happen. So we need to be aware of it. But what I would recommend to people is understand why this stigma against non technical founders exists.

Sophia: Look for examples of successful non technical founders, learn how they fundraised and learn what their answers are to investors when they're fundraising. So actually on my podcast and technical techies, I have [00:39:00] interviewed a lot of non technical founders who talk about this journey. But what I would say to people, the biggest, biggest thing is that I would want you to remember if you're a non technical founder, fundraising is that investors are not funding university projects, right?

Sophia: Academic projects are all about, okay. Tech innovation, like academic projects are just funding innovation for innovation sake to, you know, further humanities knowledge. If you're building a business, this is not what you're doing. You're building a business to make money, right? So actually what you always want to show investors is, do I have enough knowledge to hire the right people to help me solve this problem and make money after this problem?

Sophia: Fundamentally, this is the story that you need to tell. And also just remember that you're probably going to have to kiss quite a lot of frogs before you find your [00:40:00] prince. But you know, that's usually the case for a lot of founders. And, you know, if it were easy, then we would all be billionaires, right?

Mehmet: Yeah, absolutely. To your point, you know, I like the examples you gave, Sophia. So for people, even if you are non tech, by the way, I advise you to go and read a lot of the work of Steve Blank, adjunct professor at Stanford. And he keeps repeating in all his videos, in his books, go out of the building. So you just draw something.

Mehmet: And then he says, go out of the building, which is like, go and see the boss to your point, Sophia. Uh, because. Again, we make it in our head as a hypothesis. that this is going to work, nothing wrong to put a hypothesis because you think that there is a pain in this aspect, but to validate it, and this is where the prototype would help you a lot.

Mehmet: So you have, even if it's half cooked, that's fine. [00:41:00] So people can, when you are in a, time. I think people are smart enough to understand what you are trying to solve. So go out and test it. And then you come back to your drawing board and then you change what you need to change. So this is a hundred percent.

Mehmet: The second thing about, you know, like the funding part, in my opinion, and again, I would, I would agree with you, Sophia, like, um, It looks like, and I can't blame, you know, the, as their short name is A16Z. I don't blame them to, to think that it's easy for technical people to learn business, but don't get me wrong.

Mehmet: If you come from a business background, you're on an edge of a technical founder because you would be able to put right marketing strategies. You will be able to put right. And, you know, reasonable financial projections, like usually the things that, uh, investors would look at. Believe it or not, not all the times investors are interested to know how you've built [00:42:00] this app or whatever you're building.

Mehmet: Uh, they will do this in maybe a due diligence session, but if you are in the MVP part and you're raising money, you don't need to worry much about it. You need to worry about But Sophia just mentioned your customers, the boss, like is the boss happy and how much traction you have? And of course the other traditional things like how big is the market, you know, how are you going to execute this on the ground?

Mehmet: So,

Sophia: and storytelling, I'm literally, next week I'm about to teach a class on storytelling in an accelerator. And it's interesting because I get asked to teach classes on storytelling in, you know, business schools and accelerators all the time. And I'm like, but don't you want to, you know, also learn about APIs?

Sophia: And so, That I basically end up doing both and the reason why is that what I have found is that, okay, once you learn all of these, all of this tech jargon, and you learn how to hire a tech team, you learn how to [00:43:00] attract a tech team, you learn maybe how to attract and keep a great technical co founder, um, then, You need to go out into the market, whether that's going to investors, whether that's going to the media, um, you basically need to go out of the building, as you said, and start telling people and inspiring them about your journey.

Sophia: And here's my very politically incorrect example that I always give in my classes. I say, Look at Adam Neumann, right? The founder of WeWork. Now, I'm not saying that we should follow his example, but this guy managed to convince investors that a building, you know, his company, WeWork, is fundamentally a collection of buildings.

Sophia: It is a collection of real estate that he was leasing out. This is, uh, this is not a tech concept and somehow he managed to convince investors that this was a tech company. And so, like, what was he lying? I think [00:44:00] there was probably a little bit of lying involved. But at the end of the day, Investors have eyes, right?

Sophia: Like they should have been able to say like, this is a brick and mortar situation. People are paying for access to a building. This is not a software business. And yet he was getting software company valuations and he was positioning his business as a business in the digital age. Yes, we don't want to follow his example, partly because it all came crashing down, right?

Sophia: Um, but this is an example. of how storytelling and conviction are actually sometimes more important than, you know, actually what people see with their eyes. And so, especially at the early stages, what I say to people at the early stages, when you don't have anything, like maybe, You got a team together, and you used AI to make a prototype, and you've tested it, and you basically got a [00:45:00] bunch of market surveys.

Sophia: Like, this is where you are right now. At this point, storytelling and conviction, that's what's going to get you over the line. Because frankly, There are way more reasons not to fund a startup than to fund a startup, because every startup, you know, I have ran startups, I've invested in startups, I've advised startups, every startup is a complete and utter disaster in slightly different ways, right?

Sophia: So there are usually more reasons to stay away than to do it. And one of the reasons why people get bought in is they get bought in. By the enthusiasm of the founder. And so I always say to people, storytelling and enthusiasm is really important. So just practically, you know, if you're going to pitch, have a good night's sleep, you know, have a nice meal before you pitch, like be in a good [00:46:00] mood, you know, work out, like get your endorphins going, because when you're in a good mood and you're enthusiastic, You know, the feeling that people get, they're like, I don't know what's going on, but I want to be part of it.

Mehmet: Yeah, absolutely. I can just add one, one, one or two sentences to what you said, Sophia, um, regarding the pitching part. So you need to be falling in love with the problem that you're solving. And I always tell people, they come to me and they say, because, you know, I, I do some work with, um, you know, with an entity here in Abu Dhabi and, you know, students ask me like, how should we prepare?

Mehmet: I said, how? You would go and pitch this idea to your friend, right? Like, are you excited about it? And if you are able to make, you know, the story out of it. And then show your enthusiasm to the point you mentioned then probably you would be up to something because people would notice this and If you I [00:47:00] always advise i'm a little bit biased because i'm i'm very much affected by the guy like I read the book I don't know how many times i've watched all the you know cinematic work that was done about him steve jobs So he was the best one.

Mehmet: I didn't see till now someone who does storytelling better than him And when I say storytelling, it's not about telling a story in the sense of telling a story during the presentation. It's about drawing you a journey. And I always go and advise people to go and watch the first presentation of the launch of the iPhone.

Mehmet: Because the way he put it to us, if you think about it, there's no problem, right? But what he's, all of a sudden Before he said like we're launching the iPhone you start to say yuck. I have a device which is bulky It's not easy to use. I need to carry multiple things with me So actually he ignited in our mind the problem even before, you know He showed us the solution and this is exactly What you need to do when you pitch to investors and even to [00:48:00] clients and even to your friends So you need you need to reach to this point and thanks to the no code and the ai who's doing this You You know, in a much easier way now, Sofia, you know, I know, like, you know, we can discuss a lot, but as we are approaching the end, so on the regional level, um, what we can do more.

Mehmet: So what you're doing is fantastic. Right. But we need more people to be having, you know, this. techie mind and to encourage also the other side Sharda investors to, to, to put also their trust and money in these folks. So what else we can do, how we can take the region to the next level?

Sophia: So actually, you know, one of the programs we do is literally called tech for angel investors to help them understand and spot opportunities and not just to look for another Mark Zuckerberg, because that way they'll miss a lot.

Sophia: You know, first of all, I really want to commend the leadership in the GCC region [00:49:00] for Vision 2030, you know, because so much is, you know, in Saudi Arabia, in Bahrain, in UAE, Qatar, and so on. There is so much rapid change and what I really love about this particular region is just how much thoughtful government investment is going into education.

Sophia: Because we can actually see from the U. S. example that it was investments that the U. S. Government made in the sixties and in the seventies, that essentially led to the creation of the Silicon Valley that we know today. And did you know that actually the major tech innovations within the iPhone, they were all funded by the U S government and Steve Jobs's genius was actually getting this touch glass.

Sophia: Which was already, which was funded by DARPA and that's a U. S. government body, you know, getting GPS, getting all of these technologies that were [00:50:00] already funded by the U. S. government and putting them into a beautiful user friendly design. But the thing is, that didn't happen overnight. That happened with smart government investments decades.

Sophia: You know, I think received jobs probably wasn't even born then, right? And so, and this is really what, first of all, I just want people to appreciate, like, this is happening in your region right now. So if you are not seeing these immediate results, it's because that's not how it works, right? Creating a whole new digital curriculum, which is what we are doing with our programming in Bahrain, creating a whole new curriculum For people to really understand how to thrive in the digital age is going to have some outcomes today because some people will start a company today that will go on to become very successful.

Sophia: But a lot of these people are going to use these skills and you know, they're going to become more and [00:51:00] more fruitful in the years to come. So first of all, appreciate where you are in terms of like, what you can, what more you can do and then what, what more people can do is I think there's a lot being done about helping people to learn to code and helping people to become data scientists and to learn these tech skills.

Sophia: And honestly, if coding gives you joy, then do that. You know, I have plenty of friends who are engineers. And they code when they're at work and then they come home and they do their coding hobby project because they love it. It gives them joy. Now, I couldn't think of anything worse. I think this is, I think it's really like, that's not what my brain is geared for.

Sophia: My brain is geared for different things. And what I would suggest to people is that, you know, If you are more of a people person, you're more of a communicator, or you want to be a leader of people, um, then actually [00:52:00] don't torture yourself by trying to force yourself to become a coder, because you're probably never going to be that good.

Sophia: And you'll hate it. And frankly, you only live once. So what I would say is, take your skill set, kind of like that ballet theatre manager, and then add the tech skill, tech skills onto it. So be who you are, but essentially just digitally enhance yourself, because that's That's really the skill set that you need for the digital age.

Sophia: And so for, you know, if there are people from governments or enterprises listening to this, what I would say to you is that you probably have a lot of great coding programs, but what I find is missing is this kind of tech for non techies education, which is saying, okay, We love our lawyers, we love our HR people, we love our salespeople.

Sophia: We want them to carry on using their skills and talents as they are, but we want to add another skillset [00:53:00] because I think there are too many programs that are trying to take, you know, essentially right brained people and turn them in the left, right into left brained people. And that basically just doesn't really work.

Mehmet: Absolutely. And uh, you know, I can stress. What you said if you don't don't do it because you know, you feel you are missing out, right? So Just follow what what? You feel it's good for you and Advice again with the blue ocean theory and I tell them guys like, okay, please we don't need more coders We have plenty of them.

Mehmet: Don't get me wrong. I mean Of course, like not all people are on the same level, but we have, we have already called, we have engineers enough. I don't think we have lack of engineers. I think we need more people with this innovation mindset and you know, how we can enhance what we are doing today. And I always tell people think about four aspects, which is, they teach us even in, in, in engineering and [00:54:00] in sales as well.

Mehmet: So how I can make something faster. cheaper, how I can increase the revenue for my organization or how I can avoid the risks. If, if you can, you know, like hook to one of these four or maybe two, if it's better, you're up to something. And this is how you do things in an entrepreneurial way, I would say also as well.

Mehmet: Sophia, I really enjoyed the conversation with you today. So if you want to leave us with the final word of wisdom, probably to the fellow non techie entrepreneur people. Uh, so what you tell us and how people can get in touch with you.

Sophia: So I would, this, this message is both for the techies and for the, for the non techies, which is find a friend on the other side.

Sophia: That's my task for you from 2025, because you know, if you're a non technical person having literally friends, I'm not even talking about people you work with, but just people that you enjoy having lunch with. Find [00:55:00] friends on the other side. And, you know, if you can do more than one, you know, stretch it up to five, you get extra marks and, you know, if you're a technical person, find some business people.

Sophia: The reason is like, I have benefited from this immensely because yes, there are tech people that I work with, but I love having kind of my secret cabinet of friends that I can literally say to them, like, Hey, you know, I've This problem's come up. I don't really know what's going on. Can you tell me about it?

Sophia: And because they're friends, they have absolutely no, you know, their only skin in the game is basically making sure that their friend is happy, that I'm happy, right? They don't care about the company. They don't care about politics and having this kind of these secret people who you can call on and say, this is going on.

Sophia: What's your advice? It's really, really, really useful. And equally, if you're a tech person. Find some business people because, you know, maybe you're a CTO in a startup and the startup is about to [00:56:00] go through fundraising and there's going to be a dilution. That's going to affect you. You know, find some people who can actually explain to you, okay, this is what a dilution is.

Sophia: And somebody who is not a CTO. In the company, not an investor, but just somebody who has your interest at heart. So find a friend on the other side, cultivate that friendship, your career and your life will be so much better and more fun.

Mehmet: Great. Where do we can get in touch with you, Sophia?

Sophia: Well, I'd love you to get in touch with me.

Sophia: So listen to the Tech with Non Techies podcast, if you're a non technical founder, a non technical innovator, and get in touch with me on LinkedIn. That's where I am most active.

Mehmet: Great. Just one final thing. So unless you follow Sophia's advice of finding, you know, the other half of you, let's say in a, of course, professional way, uh, you're going to end up like being, uh, feeling lost.

Mehmet: And unless you are a generalist, okay, I'm lucky to be a one. So who likes to explore? So, so I, and I like to [00:57:00] understand both sides. So this is why I immerse myself. Of course I come from tech background, but I decided then to go into the business side in the sales, marketing operations. I wanted to understand this.

Mehmet: And recently I want to understand more about the funding part. So I want to understand how angel investment works, how, But not I can understand it's overwhelming not everyone can do it So to sophia's point try to find someone on the other side sophia. I really enjoyed the conversation It's one of the richest, you know, uh discussions I had so thank you very much for you know, your valuable time Sharing your thoughts Sharing your also knowledge with the with me and with the audience also as well So we are grateful for you.

Mehmet: And this is usually how I end my episode. This is for the audience If you just discovered our podcast, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed if you did So, please give us a thumb up share it with your friends and colleagues And if you are one of the people who keep coming again and again, thank you for doing so And keep sending me your comments and suggestions Thank you for sending me your suggestions.

Mehmet: I read them all. And as I say always, [00:58:00] thank you for tuning in today. We will meet again very soon. Thank you. Bye bye.