#435 Revolutionizing Healthcare UX: AI, Personalization, and Design Innovation with Mary Borysova

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased joining me Mary Borysova. Mary, thank you very much for being here with me on the show today. The way I love to do it is I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves. So give us a little bit more a [00:01:00] background about you, your journey and what you're currently up to.

Mehmet: And then we take the discussion from there.

Mary: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. We've met for having me for inviting to your wonderful podcast. My name is Mary and I'm a product designer working specifically in healthcare. So for the past seven plus years and working with healthcare companies and startups, helping them create innovative products.

Mary: So that's my passion. That's my job. That's what I do. Every single day, and I think I'm quite blessed to be able to say that that's every single person probably found this a source of inspiration and passion and joy. So, yeah, I would say I'm also into the S of health care innovation in general, outside of my work as well.

Mary: So. I do love trying new healthcare devices and thank God there are so many every single day we have new healthcare variables. So yeah, from all of the [00:02:00] sides, from business side, from consumer side, from just normal user side, I've tried all aspects of healthcare and yeah, I love it.

Mehmet: Cool. So maybe it's like a kind of a traditional question, but let me ask you Mary, like how product design differ in healthcare rather than maybe any other field?

Mary: Yeah, I think that's a good question because, um, quite often you would say product design and we are speaking here about software design. So just to understand it better, it might be clinical software. Let's imagine you go to the hospital and your doctor is using some software to log your symptoms. For example, you may have some.

Mary: Blood work or any other analysis and your data is locked somewhere. This software may be designed by my team, so by my design studio. Uh, also applications that you are using for healthcare, [00:03:00] let's say Google Health. It could be anything that is related in some way to health that would be clinical software.

Mary: So in this case, when we are speaking about product design in healthcare, we will be talking only about user experience, so software design. And how it is different, I would say. Many people would argue that if you're a great designer, you'll be able to design anything. Right? So the process is the same. You understand the problem well enough to be able to come up with a good solution.

Mary: And then you test it till you are sure that the solution is good enough. So technically, it's all simple, right? The same components or the same design process across all of the industries. The only thing is that specifically in healthcare, I would say the issue that quite often we forget about the privacy concerns and accessibility if you are designing for Nations.[00:04:00]

Mehmet: Mm hmm.

Mary: Right. So, um, designing for seniors will be very different than designing for a talk app or even feedback, right? Uh, same about security concerns, quite often we cannot use the data that you normally would be able to use. Mm hmm. The private data of the user. So that limits us a lot when we are talking about AI, for example, right now, I have many friends in, uh, huge corporations and the biggest companies like flaw house, for example, the biggest female house app in the world.

Mary: And they can not really use the data that you enter. Because of the privacy concerns. So they cannot fully develop the technology because of this limitation. Certainly with time, we'll be able to find ways around it. But still, as a designer, probably you will notice that there are many more limitations from a legal standpoint and also from [00:05:00] accessibility point of

Mehmet: view.

Mehmet: Right. And you know, like it's, it's You're very true that healthcare and you know, I talked to a lot of even, you know founders in the healthcare industry and some CTOs as well and you know, like it's It's not an easy I would say path to choose because all the aspects that you've mentioned Mary now You mentioned something about the difference in, in designing, um, you know, something for like maybe Gen Z's kind of application and designing for senior people who can I use?

Mehmet: So what are like some of the strategies that can make a healthcare software, whether it's an app or, you know, just any app, uh, addictive and effective in your opinion?

Mary: I think, um, healthcare apps, we are quite lucky here. Because [00:06:00] technically everything that we are doing, we are doing it for the human, for their health, right?

Mary: So when we are speaking about social media or any other sort of app, if you say addictive, people will be just freaking out because nobody wants the app to be addictive, right? Right. To spend as much time away from it with health is a bit different because here we are optimizing for some sort of positive addiction, right?

Mary: So we want the user to love their steps or to do their fitness activities every single day. So it must be addictive in a way, not in a manipulative way, as usual, it's like 90 percent of the market would say it's probably not for the human that's against really, um, and in our case, optimizing for attention and engagement long term for the sake of somebody's health, mental health, physical health.

Mary: Any, any sort of improvement in physical and mental body. So, um, speaking of [00:07:00] that, the feature that would probably help you design an app that would be, um, addictive. Uh, there are a few. I would probably start with ones that are the most interesting ways in upcoming. Innovation in AI, that would be personalization.

Mehmet: Um,

Mary: like you probably noticed AI can analyze a lot of data instantly. And previously, when you were entering a lot of data, what you could get was just a chart, right? And chart is not very actionable. Yes, I can take a look at how, like, the number of steps fluctuated. That's very nice to see, but so what?

Mary: It's not really actionable, and it's not very motivating for me to keep going. It's nice. It's visual, right? So it's better than nothing, certainly. But with our very, very short attention spans right now, to [00:08:00] decipher this chart, to really make sense of the data, it takes so much time, right? And nobody has this time.

Mary: Because there are TikToks that are like 10 seconds. And I don't have 10 seconds to scroll through my data to understand what's happening, right? So there must be way to transfer the knowledge that the app has now to the user in two, three seconds. And how do we do that? So, uh, first of all, personalization, obviously it's summarization of the data that the user has entered, or we collected using the variable.

Mary: And at the same time, it's engagement. So chatbots, um, many applications, many modern applications. So using these, these chatbots coaches, you might say, right. AI therapist, AI coach, AI, I don't know, helper. So what you're doing is you're asking them a question. For example, I'm feeling. Not very well today.

Mary: Should I, [00:09:00] uh, go to the gym or should I maybe meditate or do yoga or, for example, it's a very, very simple example, honestly, but to understand how they will guide us based on the data, for example, our pulse, heart rate, anything that they can access is in the variable, they will be using it to understand how stressed out we are right now, how bad it is compared to the previous days, How well we were recovering previously and based on all of this massive data, which was previously impossible to really analyze They will give you a recommendation.

Mary: Let's say it seems like today are really struggling You are under stress probably based on your heart rate Not necessarily what you have inputted there that you're feeling sad. No based on real biometrics And based on that, it will say, maybe it's better for you to go for a walk. [00:10:00] Don't go to the gym because you will be even more stressed out.

Mary: You will not be able to sleep. And they also know your sleep patterns. So go to bed at 9 p. m., for example, and wake up at 6. Because that's your optimal cycle based on your previous 90 days, right? So that is a lot more interesting for you. As a user, because you understand it's not generic and if your coach tells you to do this, probably you will compared to just, well, it feels like you've made 10 more steps today.

Mary: Good job. It's not necessarily the most interesting data, right? So personalization, that would be the first pattern, which increases engagement a lot. And, uh, secondly I would say gamification, but it has been on the market for a while. If you think of the brightest examples of gamification, you think of education in Duolingo, right?[00:11:00]

Mehmet: Right.

Mary: So, um, it has been here for a long, long time, which is it right now we are trying to incorporate health applications more and more and maybe just. Discover the nuance around how this will affect the user better. So it's not just giving them the badge for achieving something, but having more nuanced approach and really tweaking the message in a way that is truly engaging for this specific user.

Mary: So it's not generic, might be based on the data that they have entered, for example, their specific goals or any, any things that really motivates them personally. And indeed, they are, for example, preparing in terms of, I don't know. Maybe they have wedding or some other reason, and that will make them significantly better than just saying you have three days to go to lose five kilos, right?

Mary: So, [00:12:00] um, something that will be a lot more useful for user. And at the same time for the application owner for founder, it will obviously improve the metrics. So it's more addictive, in a way, yes.

Mehmet: Yeah, so, so these are like all cool strategies. So you mentioned a couple of other things. Now, also, I know, like, you touched on the AI, um, in the design.

Mehmet: Um, and from software perspective, but what you have seen some good use cases, Mary, when it comes to design for physical, uh, medical devices?

Mary: Yeah, speaking of physical medical devices, it's not my domain. That's why I would probably shy away from expressing any opinions on that because healthcare is insanely huge, right?

Mary: So you cannot really express, um, any, any opinion on a medical side of it, [00:13:00] life sciences, if you are not working there, right? Just like people in life sciences will probably. have nothing to say about, uh, application design or software design. Uh, that's why we, well, healthcare in general is, yes, health innovation.

Mary: There are so many sub niches and within the sub niches there are even smaller niches. So to really know what you're talking about, I think you have to be highly specialist. So physical products, most probably, yeah, I would not. I don't want to risk saying anything

Mehmet: about that topic. Completely fine.

Mehmet: Completely fine. Now, um, like some of the things which you also touched on, but, uh, you know, maybe just if you can give us some examples. Like I had some people who shared, you know, uh, their opinions about, you know, how AI can shape, you know, for [00:14:00] example, how people can get health care. Uh, in some underserved areas, like what kind of, you know, innovations, uh, that maybe, of course, I would be part of it that can let people have the access to the health care resources that they deserve, especially if they are in remote areas or underserved areas or maybe in developing countries and so on.

Mary: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's an excellent question, because, um, what we are speaking about when we are. Speaking about innovation is really two things. First of all, accessibility, accessibility in terms of the location and secondly, accessibility in terms of the price. Because obviously human intervention will always be more expensive or almost always will be more expensive than automation.[00:15:00]

Mary: Human has designed and developed, right? So here we are battling against obviously super high prices. For health services, especially in the U. S. And obviously the huge amount of, uh, space that is not covered by any sort of services and especially not covered by any specialized services. For example, if you have like, I don't know, philological issues or like really, really, you need it.

Mary: Narrow specialist. It will be extremely hard to find one. And you will have to travel a lot just to see a specialist. So we are solving the health innovation this too. And just to give you probably interesting, few interesting examples. I was working on, uh, on quite an interesting product, uh, which helps people in remote areas in Australia, starting from Australia, uh, scan their feet using 3D scanner.

Mary: Uh, yeah. [00:16:00] in the phone to assess the feet and assess the issues that they have. So, uh, you may be walking in front of the camera or just taking photos, and that is enough already for software to assess Which issues you have. And then based on that, the new orthotic can be created, which will be custom to you, and then it will be produced on the factory and shipped to you where you are.

Mary: Obviously, right now, it's impossible to do this 100 percent in automated fashion. You must have a doctor who will review this results, right? But compared to manual, uh, review or even traveling to see the doctor, then traveling again to get the rototic, maybe traveling again, because something went wrong.

Mary: it saves a lot of time and obviously it makes a price for the orthotic significantly, significantly, [00:17:00] because obviously in this case we are saving so much time of the specialist, of the doctor, whose services are very valuable indeed and they are quite expensive as well. So in this case, uh, it's Two in one, so more accessible in terms of the location and for the price.

Mary: And certainly there are many, many other examples, even in terms of digital therapeutics. So, anything that helps us solve our problems using the internet, and it is possible. There are multiple physical devices which help you. assess something at home. For example, you can use this device together with your doctor as a camera, for example, to check your throat or check your ear, anything, right?

Mary: So you can use a device that you purchased previously, they will be looking at using the camera, getting the data, and wherever they are, they will be able to get this data and [00:18:00] make sure that they are prescribing something correctly. And then when the next time To the doctor comes again. You're saving so much time and so much money by this.

Mary: And same about just normal digital consults and countless digital consults just to get the meds that you were already prescribed previously, because you do need to have this return visits as well, unfortunately, so you need to pay for them. So, yeah, it's in by and large, I think it's a huge industry that will be digitized.

Mary: and automated. And it is already in such a shape that we are seeing the huge benefits of a I both parties, the patient and

Mehmet: got you. Um, something related also to design, Mary. Um, so we're talking about, of course, [00:19:00] in the Background there's some complex technology Part of it may be ai part of it is automation as you just mentioned um, of course Anyone who like yourself work in design, you should put, you know, the user in mind, you know, when, when designing, you know, the, the, the product.

Mehmet: Um, but again, sometimes there will be some complexity. So of course, just back to, for example, to the example of taking the photo and so on, um, So how, you know, you take, you know, the steps required, I would say, or like, what's the formula to keep a balance between ultimate customer experience, like UI, UX perspective, you know, I, I got, I'm, I'm, I'm a senior.

Mehmet: Um, citizen, you know, and I need to use this app. I don't know, [00:20:00] maybe to do the, uh, scanning for the food or something else, but you know, from design, but maybe they have to do it in a certain way and you need the app also to be so friendly from, you know, UI UX perspective. So they don't struggle with it. So how do you balance, my question is between these complexities from tech perspective and, you know, keeping.

Mehmet: the customer centricity in mind.

Mary: Yeah. I would say here, uh, we need to keep in mind, um, a few things. First of all, a lot of software is designed for the provider. And when we are speaking about any product, most probably we can safely say that there are two parties quite often. So the patient, yes, the patient who's interacting with the software.

Mary: I don't know, sitting in front of computer and doing some, uh, consulting and the doctor is [00:21:00] providing the services is assessing the data who's entering the data with then working with inputs. is analyzing the data from the patient, previous data, history data, and then making sensitive. So I think, uh, from, from the standpoint of senior citizens or any, any sort of user right here, this balance is pretty simple, uh, because When we are designing something to be working, we must usually, uh, test it at the very end.

Mary: So this standards of accessibility, when you're speaking about senior citizens, they must be passed. So it is like bare minimum. So it must be done. And then on top of that, we are building something that will be working for the user functionality wise, or same exactly same story for the providers. [00:22:00] Because, uh, we also must remember that this People will be interacting with this software quite possibly if you're speaking about clinical operations, even more than the patient because they come at 8 a.

Mary: m. They start work and then they may not finish till 8 p. m. Right? So it must be accessible for them as well.

Mehmet: Right. Um, now shifting a little bit. Yes. And the questions now, um, you know, in the war off startups, right? So we talk about going from zero to one, right? So In your opinion, and your experience working with, you know, multiple startups, um, especially in healthcare industry, we are focusing on the healthcare industry, uh, what it takes, uh, Mary, something to go from zero to [00:23:00] one, like what are like the, you know, again, The, the things that the founders need to, to, to do, of course, from design perspective to make sure that they go from zero to one.

Mary: Yeah, I think it's a very complex question. Cause like all Doesn't

Mehmet: aim to.

Mary: Yeah, yeah. Well, 90 percent of startups will die every single industry. And I feel like in healthcare, it's even worse. Because it's like anything I think more complex, uh, in terms of licensing and other issues, right? So many more will die, not just 80%.

Mary: And you need to be prepared to the fact that, um, many companies will not make it. So if you cannot make it with this specific product in this company, maybe it will happen so that you will need to pivot, launch a new company and so on. So it is, I would say, [00:24:00] quite common for me to meet a serial entrepreneur in healthcare who has many, many products in healthcare and they have tried.

Mary: Right with different sub niches and so on. So what does it take from design standpoint? I would say it's pretty simple. Um, because design, um, for healthcare startups, it must include behavior design as well. So we are understanding how to program the behavior of the user. If you are designing for the patient.

Mary: And for clinical operations, we must understand the clinical operations in the hospital. So it's a much more complex system with many, many stakeholders, insurance as well as usually. So it is a normal approach of a designer, right? Just given that we also need to know some behavioral design. But what does it make, uh, to take your product and startup from [00:25:00] zero to one?

Mary: That's a very different question because, yes, we all can create amazing products in healthcare. However, it does not always happen so that we can take them from zero to one and scale it. And a few reasons for that would be Partially, um, legal, so licensing in each state, in each country, regulations, uh, also obviously selling the product predominantly to businesses, because healthcare is largely, uh, covered by the federal government.

Mary: So we are not selling it to the end consumer or cash pay. We are selling it to insurance to be covered, right? Or to corporation for them to include it as a benefit for the employees. So it is a little bit less straightforward path.

Mehmet: Mm-hmm .

Mary: And many might think it is less of a just launching the product on [00:26:00] the market app store and then seeing how it goes.

Mary: Not always like that. Quite often it's a lot more complex and you need to be very well integrated in the ecosystem and understand how things are done on the business level.

Mehmet: Right. Now, I know, uh, No one can, uh, can know what's in the future, especially when I'm talking, of course, about the tech and things moving very fast.

Mehmet: But again, you know, all of us, we can spot some trends. We can spot, you know, uh, where things are heading in your opinion, like. What are you know, of course AI I I know like I'm not asking you about AI because AI is one of the Emerging techs in in health in health care But you know what other things excites you again from from design [00:27:00] perspective Because you know, we're seeing in recent years a lot of things happen with wearables with MIOT and, you know, medical, uh, internet of things.

Mehmet: So where do you see things heading and how do you envision this, you know, to be, uh, reflected on the patient experience in the near future? I'm not telling you 10 years from now in the near future.

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. So I think again, we need to define the niche because, uh, speaking of the provider perspective, there are many, many new, uh, applications of innovation, like, you know, in radiology and so on.

Mary: That is a huge separate niche, probably better to avoid it. Speaking of the consumer, I'm certainly excited about mental health aspect of it.

Mehmet: Right

Mary: now we are seeing many Chatbots, AI powered trained models, and while five [00:28:00] years ago, they were not the best models, right? Right. So they were quite stupid.

Mary: These days, it's not the case. For example, Replica is one of the biggest AI, um, trends, if you may say so. It is used by 30 million users, and it is practically just a chatbot. With the main functionality of supporting you mentally, and there is a very thin line between a therapist and digital chatbot.

Mary: Realistically, if you, um, if you train probably this chatbot a little bit better, and force it to use three particular methods, it will be not very far. The question is that, yes, it will not be able to empathize you the way the therapist or friend will, but the majority of people will not be able to ever access any mental health services.

Mary: services, especially in underserved markets, like in India, for example, they may have very severe [00:29:00] mental health issues or any moderate mental health issues, and they will never be able to access the services. And with the mobile app, they will be. And it's already clinically proven that this Services is online AI, uh, chatbots.

Mary: They do decrease, um, first of all, they help diagnose depression and a few other mental health issues. So for diagnostics, they are relatively good enough already. For treatment, obviously not as much, but they are moving towards very good state right now. They are already decreasing loneliness now, and there are countless studies which prove that they are doing it not worse than a human, especially when a human does not know who's responding.

Mary: The moment you tell a human that AI is responding, they'll be like, no, no, it did not help. But if you lie and [00:30:00] say that, uh, that was human, they will say, yes, it actually helped a lot. If you say nothing, uh, to, to make sure that it's like more of a clear, clean experiment, the, it will still show the improvement.

Mary: So just knowing that it is a human per se will improve it even further. Right? So, uh, by and large, they are very helpful already. They will be developing a lot more because Replica is seven years old. And it has improved so much, probably a matter of another five years till, till AI friends and AI therapists will be replacing.

Mary: A lot of this, and that's not to say that they can, for example, help in some severe cases, like suicide allegations. So they will not be able to, but majority of cases are less severe, and we can technically track the [00:31:00] changes in depression and other disorders quite easily.

Mehmet: Yeah, um, it's, um, you know, fascinating now on the point you mentioned about like telling is it AI or not AI.

Mehmet: So it's like, uh, More than ever the Turing test became, again, you know, forefront because of course, not people, non-technical people, maybe they don't know what the Turing test is, but it's actually kind of, you know, this scenario to get, was it a machine or a human who who's answering? And to be frank with you, even from a, a technical, you know, experience perspective, sometimes.

Mehmet: I asked myself if I ask this question and I got this answer and I didn't know of course that this is chat GPT or like any other tool, would I think this was a real person or a machine? Um, and it's fascinating really, um, [00:32:00] how all this Get shape in the just past couple of years. It's not like so long and yeah, like it's exciting times I would say mary indeed.

Mehmet: Um Well, you know I'm mixing things but because I want to get the best, you know As as you you're here with me today um I know you also You know, you have a newsletter where you share some insights. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Mary: Yeah, sure. So, um, in the newsletter, I'm just doing predominantly deep dives into innovations in health care, predominantly applications focused on the patient because clinical apps are almost always, uh, hidden.

Mary: It is a huge, huge secret. You will almost never see any clinical software available anywhere. [00:33:00] It's just how the market works. So I'm diving deeper into the behavior design. Why this absolute designed in the way they were designed and how they managed to keep the users in and coming back again and again and again.

Mary: So it's quite interesting because if you think of your behavior, practically you can manipulate it in a similar way, right? So app did not invent anything. You are already designed to be human, so you are triggered by This or that you are triggered by comparison as your friend or your neighbor or your celebrity that you look at every single day.

Mary: So this mechanism already inside of you, whether you're using the app or maybe you will use it just to understand yourself better. It's quite useful just just to see what helps people, um, become healthier. And become more motivated in [00:34:00] pursuing whatever health goal they have, whether it's community or maybe just setting your goal and then checking it.

Mary: Yeah, some things are more simple. Some are more advanced, let's say, because you mentioned previously, uh, the chatbot, uh, and you did not know whether it was a human or not. Right. And now let's imagine it's not chatbot, it's voice. What would you say then? Because voice is a new medium. Yes, we are used to chatbots, and now we are like, not sure.

Mary: It might be AI. No, I'm, I'm cautious. But what about voice? What if it would be copying somebody's voice? And it can copy right now voices very well. So would you then really be able to tell it was not your therapist or your friend? If it copies the voice like 90 percent fine accuracy. Yeah, it would be harder [00:35:00] to till you maybe train yourself to recognize the difference, but still it will be significantly harder.

Mehmet: Right. On the voice side also like it's. It's exciting because, okay, I would not discuss what the bad people can do with cloning and all this, but on the other side, because you mentioned mental health, so just an idea that came to my mind, or a thought, let's say, um, because You can also tell the AI the tone and the way you want it to, you know, uh, transform the text to voice.

Mehmet: So you can say, yeah, I want it to be in a calming, relaxing. So think about it like, you know, like you're, as you're speaking to a therapist and the therapist, he or she, they would be speaking, you know, like slowly, like. Trying to have the stone of, uh, [00:36:00] you know, calming the patient down. So it's really fascinating all what we're seeing.

Mehmet: And yeah, to your point, like I'm, I'm believer also like with the medium of voice. Uh, and you know, again, this is my personal point of view. So we're just touching the surface. So, uh, plenty of other things that are coming. Uh, Maria, what are some of the exciting, uh, maybe upcoming designs that you're currently working on, if any?

Mary: Yeah, yeah, there are many. Uh, I would say my most exciting products, uh, that will be working on soon will be, um, around predictive analytics in healthcare. So predictive analytics in general, it's, it's a very interesting thing. So like I mentioned before, you, you now have plenty of data. You can analyze it, transform it in a way that is useful for the user so they can make an informed decision and user in our case is a clinician.

Mary: [00:37:00] So a person who works in the hospital and there are many, many interesting instances how you can use this data. For example, knowing your previous, um, physical states, we can predict how sick you will be. Or if we discharge you today, seems like you're not very sick. So we will just discharge you today.

Mary: Okay. And the system will tell you, can we really discharge you or not really? Because maybe your parameters are not as good. And if you analyze them, The long term trend will be such that you will come back tomorrow and you will have to again admit you and that's not what anybody wants, right? So read missions are not good thing.

Mary: Uh, so understanding how your previous patterns worked and building some trend based on that and then giving this clinician one simple answer. Obviously, we'll bring back the data if they want to know more [00:38:00] is very interesting is, um, by and large. Mhm. The error in, uh, in clinical settings. It's it's not tiny because we are all humans.

Mary: We get tired, and certainly we make bad decisions sometimes. And one bad decision can impact somebody's health a lot, like for life. And if AI can prevent this one bad decision from happening, that is already a win. Because maybe it will save somebody's life. It's not just like an app, right? So maybe you will not go on your gym session today.

Mary: We'll have it tomorrow. It's not a big deal, right? But in clinical setting, a lot is at stake. Somebody's lives are at stakes, especially in acute. settings. So helping a clinician is on the one hand a big responsibility. So you're not giving them the data that will harm the patient [00:39:00] because it was interpreted not in the right way.

Mary: But at the same time, it will likely speed up the process and possibly, and quite often it is already Yes, it does help a clinician to make a better decision. Because they cannot assess all of the data manually, but system can. The system is a lot more precise. A system can do it much, much faster, and it's never tired.

Mary: Certainly there are biases, and there are many, many other things that we need to keep in mind while providing this, but still, it has such a huge potential in very loaded settings, like clinical settings. That I think, regardless of all of the issues, the benefits are just outweighing them ten times.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Um, Mary, like really, I enjoyed the conversation with you today. Plenty of, you know, thought provoking things you mentioned also as well. And [00:40:00] you know, I like impact honestly, and this is when I speak to, you know, every guest I speak who's coming, uh, either from healthcare background or working on healthcare products or in healthcare software, whatever.

Mehmet: Uh, you know, I, I get a little bit emotional because this is such as, People's lives at the end of the day. So it's something close to my heart. So and thank you for sharing You know your knowledge with us Um final words you want to share with the audience and how they can get in touch with you.

Mary: Yeah, absolutely I think you can um get in touch with me.

Mary: Um via linkedin most probably And yeah, thank you very much for um Inviting me was such a pleasure for me to talk about the matter that is indeed close to my heart as well, because, uh, it does touch all of us. 100 percent of us, whether you're poor or rich, regardless of your location, you will charge the [00:41:00] system.

Mary: You want it or not, just a matter of time, maybe just matter of how frequently you will have to, but by and large it will touch all of us. That's why it makes it so interesting, exciting to Learn and exciting to innovate. So, yeah, I'm happy to talk about it. If you have any ideas or anything, just, uh, drop me a line and LinkedIn and I'll be happy to be in touch.

Mehmet: Great again. Thank you very much money for being here with me today. Um, I will keep some links for the audience, so if just in case they want to get in touch and also for the newsletter as well if they want to subscribe and check it. Um, and you know, as I said, like, thank you very much for being here with me today.

Mehmet: Now this is for the audience. If you You know, new to this show uses this podcast. Thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed. If you did so, please give us a thumb up, [00:42:00] share it with your friends and colleagues. We're trying to, you know, create this community of knowledge, inspiration, ideas across, you know, anywhere in the world within the founders and the tech enthusiasts as well.

Mehmet: And if you are one of the people who keeps coming, the, you know, the followers and, you know, the people who Keep encouraging me. Thank you for, for all your support. I really appreciate it. And as I say, always, thank you very much for tuning in here today. We will be again very soon. Thank you. Bye bye.