#455 Engineering the Future: Steven Zeller on AI, Longevity, and Human 2.0

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Mehmet: Hello, and we come back to new episode of the CTO Show at Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me from Florida, Steven Zeller. Steven, I was telling you before we hit the record button, the way I love to do it is I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves. You [00:01:00] know, tell us a bit more about your background, your journey, and what you're currently up to, and then we can take from there.

Mehmet: So the floor is yours. 

Steven: Fantastic. Nice. The virtual floor. I will take it. Mehmet, thank you so much for having me on. Appreciate it. Good to be here. Um, as for a little background on myself, I am an international entrepreneur and investor focusing on tech. And uh, my mission is to accelerate the advancement of, uh, humanity into a prosperous future.

Steven: So I do focus on, uh, the things that are going to make the biggest impact for. Humans in the long term. Now, some of this focuses towards quantum computing and ai, uh, as we will get to, uh, in this topic of discussion, I'm sure very shortly. But it also covers fields like genetic engineering, uh, artificial womb technology, brain computer interfaces, neuroscience, things like that as well.

Mehmet: Great and good [00:02:00] to have you here today, Steven. Uh, it's kind of a traditional question I know, but, uh, you know, out of the many things that someone can invest in, why technology in specific I. 

Steven: There's so many. So I think technology for me is what is going to have the biggest impact on human species altogether.

Steven: So there's a lot of, lot of different things that you can invest in, uh, FinTech applications, uh, obviously things like that. Those don't really grab my attention because there's many, many ways to make money, um, especially with all of the online tools and resources that we have at our. Disposal now that we didn't have, you know, 10, 20, 30 years ago.

Steven: Our grandparents didn't have it. Our parents didn't even have it. So this generation has access to a plethora of information that a few keystrokes. Uh, we have GPT and uh, Lama and all these other interfaces that we can now learn [00:03:00] from. Leverage utilize that we just didn't have in my generation. So it really takes all the excuses away.

Steven: It makes life a lot more fun, to be completely honest. And for some people with a little bit more skeptical or trepidatious viewpoint on technology, it might be a little overwhelming. But as far as I'm concerned, technology is the one thing that grabs my attention because it has the most dramatic implications, whether you believe.

Steven: Positive or kind of a dystopian universe where, you know, we, we eradicate ourselves through our, in our own innovations, but regardless what your take on it is, the one thing you can't dispute is technology is going to dramatically change what this world looks like in the next five to 10 years. It's just a matter of what does that future look like.

Mehmet: Yeah, absolutely. Now we have a lot of points to, to discuss with you, Steven, and I think, you know, [00:04:00] from, from your position and, you know, being, uh, yourself an entrepreneur and, uh, also like currently, you know, investing heavily in technology. Um, so. I want to start not from the ai, I would say. Okay. May, maybe this is a bit kind, contradictory, uh, of, of, uh, you know what I usually do on the show, the, the place I want to start because when I was checking, you know, you your work and you know, it looks to me you are very much focused and I see you want to have an impact.

Mehmet: On things which are related to our health in general and the way, the way we, we live. So. Tell me more, like, because of course I'm sure you see a lot of, of, uh, people coming to you and showing you what they're working on. So what is the most exciting thing you see when it comes to, you know, health tech, for example, or maybe, uh, something that you know [00:05:00] is, can help us in.

Mehmet: Having less diseases, maybe, you know, curing, uh, the, the diseases that we thought one day we cannot. So I'm pretty much, you know, interested to, to learn more about, you know, what you're seeing in that space and what's exciting you. 

Steven: This space is the most exciting to me. So out of all the things that I am looking at, and I analyze a lot of pitch decks on a, a daily and weekly basis, but the thing that excites me the most, so I'm glad that you started with this because this is something that grabs, uh, my passion, my attention the most.

Steven: So genetic engineering and understanding the code, the biological code, which with. With which we as humans are built on, all biological life really is built on. Is absolutely fascinating, and we're just now getting to the point where we are understanding and have the capabilities of reading our code. And AI is only going [00:06:00] to accelerate our understanding and ability to, uh, genetically engineer proteins this year.

Steven: The beginning of this year is marks the, uh, a major pivotal point for humans. And a lot of people may not necessarily be aware of this, but we now have ai. Massive AI companies that are partnering with, uh, like Anthropic. They're partnering with, um, open ai. Retro Biosciences is one of them, and there are many others.

Steven: Those are just the ones that I've taken a look at personally. So these are. For the first time in human history, actually having the, or looking at the capabilities of bioengineering proteins. So protein synthesis through, uh, leveraging AI is actually here now. That's fascinating. So we have only, we're still in our infancy of understanding, we've mapped the first human [00:07:00] genome, which took billions of dollars multi.

Steven: Uh, international collaborative process to actually do this, and it took billions of dollars. Now we got to the point that was back in, I believe, 2000 or 2002. Um, I, I can't recall which year exactly, but very recently, a couple decades ago, we fir, we mapped the first human genome and it was incomplete. We didn't even have the entirety of it.

Steven: We were missing a, a few key links. But you're talking about the complexity of what makes. Us. Us. Right. Uh, you're, you're talking, you're used to analyzing binary code, right? In the, in the digital space. So now take those bits, the, the binary bits, zeros and ones, and translate those into, uh, A CTG, right? So you've got four, uh, nucleotide bases.

Steven: You get when you are when, when you are born, when you're created, you have 3 billion base pairs from your mother, 3 billion base pairs from your father, and that's a combination of [00:08:00] 6 billion base pairs with a bee, and that is, that combination is what makes you your unique. So it, it's, it's actually incredible the complexity that makes the human body, you're talking about 33 trillion cells, uh, that is replacing itself.

Steven: About 1% of cells die and are regenerated every single day. So you're, you're talking about billions and billions of cells, and each one of those cells has. Thousands, if not millions of chemical reactions every second. Uh, it's got a plethora of organelles, thousands of mitochondria, uh, in a, a typical mus muscle cell.

Steven: Right? So it's, it's intriguing the, to actually get to the point where we are able to. The complexity of what makes us, us, and now manipulate that to the point where I believe in the next five to 10 years, we will have the ability to [00:09:00] completely eradicate most cancers. Obviously there's going to be, there's genetic ramifications and there are, uh, epigenetic ramifications.

Steven: For example, if, if you have the A predisposition for colorectal cancer. Right from a genetic perspective, it's hereditary. Let's say that, uh, we can analyze your offspring and. See, so the certain markers map the genome, which by the way, we can now map genomes for a couple grand. It's incredible. It went from billions of dollars to over the last couple of decades.

Steven: It significantly got reduced and we can replicate that process over and over again. The speed is astronomically increased as well. Um, I, I guess, yeah, increased so we can map. The genome of your kid, right? And let's say that there's a 50% chance that he is going to develop colorectal cancer, or a daughter is going to, uh, develop, [00:10:00] uh, has the markers for breast cancer from a genetic perspective.

Steven: We have the capability now to go in and remove that predisposition. Now, does that mean it's going to necessarily. Take the possibility of can developing cancer completely away? No. 'cause you can still introduce carcinogenic, uh, chemicals into your body after the fact, right? Epigenetic factors that are going to, uh, be present as well.

Steven: But if we have the genetic capability to go in and make your offspring. The, the perfect version, the the healthiest baby possible. A lot of people from a moral perspective say, we shouldn't play God, we shouldn't do this. I believe if we have the technological capability to save lives, I think we should absolutely be leveraging it and we are already there.

Steven: So that's one thing that's very exciting from a medical. Aspect is the fact that we have the capabilities now and the understanding, [00:11:00] especially leveraging AI to eradicate disease, eradicate cancers. I believe that that is on the very near horizon, and that's very exciting. Um, I won't bore you with this, but, uh, or unless you want me to, but what, what fascinates me a little bit more than the medical aspect of gene engineering genetic, uh.

Steven: Editing tools like CRISPR Cas nine as well is the human longevity and the possibility or feasibility of human immortality, or what I call pseudo immortality as well, though that's fascinating and it's a completely different. Conversation to be had it as opposed to just what can we do from a disease and neurodegenerative diseases like can we genetically or epigenetically reprogram your cells if you develop cancer?

Steven: Can we take those cells, reprogram them? And the answer is absolutely yes. We could take [00:12:00] your skin cells. And we can reprogram them to what's called an uh, ISP cell, an induced pluripotent, or IPS, my, my apologies induced pluripotent stem cell. Prior to the differentiating process, we can actually take your skin cell, turn it into a liver cell, turn it into anything else.

Steven: And, uh, from a theoretical standpoint, since we have the capability to reset these or reprogram these cells, we can then, if you need a kidney, we can grow a kidney. So imagine a world where. There's no transplant list, there's no rejections because we can actually take your own cells and grow whatever organ you need to save your life, 

Mehmet: right?

Mehmet: It's look, you know, very much futur, futuristic, but, uh, I follow a lot of pro, you know, like medical professors, uh, on different platforms, which are talking about, you know, [00:13:00] this. Historical moment in, uh, human history, I would say because. For the first time ever. Like these things that, you know, seem to be kind of science fiction and, you know, kind of 

Steven: Yeah.

Mehmet: And you know, like, uh, imaginary, I would say. So they're pretty much, you know, they, they are seeing it happening. Maybe not in the very near future, but as you said, like pretty much we are proved now, you know, with the AI and all the technology, um, that is, uh, you know. Around ai, I would say. So they are the main driver there, which are making these, uh, you know, imaginations coming to reality, as you said, probably in, in the coming few years.

Mehmet: Now, when it comes also to some of the stuff that you are seeing and, you know, I know like also you're passionate about, which is, you know, anything which is, we call it a neurotech. So anything which we can, you know, connect the brain. To, to, to the outside world and the human [00:14:00] interface in, in that. I'm pretty much interested because I don't think, you know, we covered much here on the show, so maybe you can give us some, uh, maybe journal information first, Steven, and then you know, what you're seeing in that space also as well.

Steven: Sure. Also an exciting space. So BCI brain computer interfaces, obviously commercialization of that technology is going to not necessarily take off as quickly as the medical applications. So the, you're, you're gonna see the medical applications that brain computer interfaces happen first, right? So, uh, we've already seen.

Steven: Multiple pilot programs that are still in their relative infancy that have made headlines. So there's a Brown University collaboration that, uh, just a couple of years ago took a, an individual with a LS, um, and they were able to give him the capability to speak for the [00:15:00] first time, just so, uh, brain computer interfaces that taps directly into the, um.

Steven: At the brain and reads the signals. So every, if you think about neurotech, right, everything that you do, everything that you think, who you are, your memories, everything's happening in your brain. That's why there's a lot, a lot of, uh, theories bouncing around of are we just a brain and a vat? 'cause how would you actually know?

Steven: Right? So does, does the matrix actually exist because we're living in some sort of, uh. Simulation that we won't go off topic right now on that, but it, it's an interesting thought process. And I, I just say that to make the point of every action you take every, when you flip, when, when you speak a word, when you point your finger, when you move your finger, when you take a step, when you decide to.

Steven: Punch the wall. Don't do that, by the way. It hurts. Uh, so, so every action that you [00:16:00] take, every thought that you think happens in your brain, so theoretically, and not just, theoretically, it's not in the realm of science fiction where we're actually doing it. Uh, and now imagine bypassing the biological, inhibiting factors and giving.

Steven: Basically expanding, giving yourself additional sense. Transhuman transhumanism if you'd like the ability to connect with other objects. Potentially tele, uh, implement telekinesis capabilities. So these are all things that we theoretically have the capability to do from a neurological perspective. Now it's just a matter of how to actually achieve it.

Steven: There's many different companies that are working on this. Um, I can mention a few if you'd like. The kind of the front Yeah. The front runners in the game that I see. Um, there, the one that. The vast majority of people will. [00:17:00] Here is Elon Musk's company near, uh, obviously Neuralink. Yeah. Um, that's the one that gets the most headlines, but it's not actually the one that I would consider the front runner.

Steven: And that hurts my soul because I'm a big Elon fan. Love what he is doing. Um, keep, keep going, Elon, but he. His company, Neuralink. Some of the complications that I see are the invasive procedures, so anything that requires, um, you to cut out a chunk of skull and actually embed a chip with wires, even though those, those micro wires that are actually feeding in.

Steven: Uh, to your brain are 10 times, a hundred times smaller than a human hair, right? Very small. It's still a foreign object. And biologically, your brain is going to fight that. It's gonna try to push it out. It's gonna move it. That's just what your body is designed to do. If there's a foreign object that's in it, uh, doesn't matter if it's a.

Steven: A, a knife, a [00:18:00] bacteria, a virus, it's going to fight against that. So it's gonna develop scar tissue. That's why it, it's, it, it does see some success. It does what it's designed to do, but the long term I. Potential negative side effects and ramifications, uh, from developing scar tissues to potentially, uh, hematomas.

Steven: There are so many different things that could potentially happen that are negative. Uh, doesn't necessarily sit well with me. I do love what I'm seeing. I love that where it having for the first time, the ability to actually tap into the human brain. However, the method behind it, I think is very important.

Steven: That's why I'm watching the non-invasive procedures. There's a company that actually beat, um, Elon's company to human trials. Uh, there's actually a couple different ones, but, uh, BlackRock has their own. A lot of people don't know that. Uh, BlackRock has had one. They're actually one of the first brain computer interface companies, [00:19:00] uh, or neurotech companies that actually got into this.

Steven: And they've got about 21. FDA approved trials. It's just very hush hush. It's under the radar. A lot of pe they don't get publicity. A lot of people don't know what they're doing behind the scenes, but they have 21 different projects that they are working on right now currently. Pretty, pretty impressive in the space.

Steven: Um, so watching that, the one that I was referencing earlier is cron. The reason I like Syncro is their approach, their method. So, you know what stent technology is for the heart, right? 

Mehmet: Yep. 

Steven: Yep. So, so imagine that process of, uh, okay, so you have, uh, you, you lack blood flow to the heart. You're not getting oxygen in there.

Steven: You, you act, uh, so they go in with stent technology. It's a relatively non-invasive procedure. They just go in through, uh, the artery and they have a little mesh that hugs the walls, the inner lining of the artery, and keeps it open to keep, make sure that there's blood coming in and out. Um, or in rather.

Steven: So imagine that same [00:20:00] tech, but going through the jugular vein, uh, and going directly into your brain, but that mesh instead of it just being a. Mesh to hug the inner walls. Now imagine it having electrodes. So the easy way for them to just go directly into the jugular, use existing technology that's already been used for a very long time in heart procedures to uh, leave.

Steven: Or embed electrodes to send and receive signals in the brain. So that gives you access to a much larger region of the brain, potentially the entire brain, or very close to it. Uh, once you have that technology completely developed and tested and it's non-invasive and it's using leveraging tech that already exists.

Steven: Uh, so that's a little bit of an idea of where we're going. So there's multiple, there's three different ways to. Have the a, uh, this technology work. One is [00:21:00] a wearable. Wearable is good. So that's, you know, the, the helmets, right? The, the, or the electrodes that just sit on the outside. So that's as non-invasive as it gets.

Steven: Not pretty, but yet anyway. Uh, but you've got companies like meta, you've got all these companies that are kind of gamifying it a little bit. Mm-hmm. So these are incredible technology. It can read and interact with brain waves, brain activity. It can tell you are you depressed, are you happy? You know, where's, what's going on with epinephrine or, uh, your pineal gland?

Steven: Are you getting enough sleep so it can monitor and do all of these things? But from a very basic level. So the efficacy of applications, what you can actually do, you need direct access to the brain. So the wearables aren't gonna be good for a lot of medical applications or things like that.

Steven: Psychological, yes. Uh, gaming. Yes. Um, potentially even a few more [00:22:00] applications like speech recognition potentially in the future. But you need direct access to the brain. So now, now you have the. Invasive procedures like taken out a chunk of skull like Neuralink is doing, and so many others directly feeding wires in and electrodes into the brain tissue and sending and receiving signals.

Steven: Incredible what you can do. The efficacy is amazing. We can take people with paraplegia and uh, allow them to walk again. It's happening right now in human trials. It's incredible what we can do with this tech. Um, I'm just concerned about the long-term effects, um, and applications as well. So for me personally, I am watching the companies like Synchro and there's a few others as well, that are really focusing on accessing the human brain directly through non-invasive procedures.

Mehmet: Like, again, this is really, really fascinating and, uh, you know, one, one. [00:23:00] Think you just mentioned, I mean, at the beginning where there's this debate now actually about Yeah. Are we living in the matrix right now? I, I'm saying this as a, you know, as a joke and something serious because, you know, there is this debate also, Steven, and I've seen, I've seen it also even with, uh.

Mehmet: You know, within, let's say the medical, uh, you know, behind the doors, discussions also as well about, you know, longevity about, you know, the aid anti-aging things that we are doing and are we as humans ready? Of course, like this is kind of maybe, you know, another huge discussion that it's not only me and you, we have to do it, but all us, you know, as humans living here to, to see like.

Mehmet: What should we do? Right. Speaking about, uh, uh, Elon, like of course people can agree or disagree, but I relate few of the things which he, he does [00:24:00] because if we see what he's trying to do with, uh, especially, you know, the, the Neuralink right? And, you know, his efforts to kind of helping reducing, you know, the.

Mehmet: You know, the effects of, of some of the diseases is somehow Right, right. And the other studies that are happening and his view of colonizing Mars and other things. So maybe that can relate to the guy has a vision that if we reach this technology, we need another place also as well. Of course, he says we need a plan B.

Mehmet: That's okay. But I think, you know, maybe this is part of the guy's vision, uh, because right, like if, if everyone can live now. Let's say not immortality yet, but let's say a hundred years or maybe 150 to a hundred. Yeah. We gotta have a lot of, of aging, uh, population over there. Of course, this is a philosophical discussion.

Mehmet: I'm aware of this, but. Things are happening and are happening [00:25:00] in a fast pace, I would say yes. Now I know also Steven, part of the things which are related to all these technologies. And here I want to bring, you know, the AI and the quantum computing. And I know like you are heavily investing in, in this. I think, if I'm not mistaken, we're, 

Steven: we're gonna, we're gonna breeze, breeze over the, the moral and economical implications of human immortality.

Mehmet: Yeah. But tell me more about, you know. You, you are even investing or building, maybe I've got this wrong. Data centers all, you know, powering AI and quantum computing and you know, like I, I'm not old guy, but I've been like here on, on, on this earth, you know, quite enough to say. Like when I saw things moving fast and when things are moving slow, but now we're moving super fast.

Mehmet: Yes. Ultimate, super fast. Um, you know, with what's happening with the quantum every day or second day, we have some breakthroughs Now. Ai, same thing. [00:26:00] Tell me, Steven, what you're seeing in that space. Like, and, and what's are the most, uh, you know, exciting things, uh, you are currently working on or maybe helping someone else to work on.

Steven: Sure. So definitely monitoring this space and uh, uh, being a part of this space as well is very exciting. So I recently started an initiative where I work with governments, uh, government agencies and universities to generate exclusive energy deals and other incentives to build data centers on campus. So that gives student access to real.

Steven: World experience, right as they're going through programs. Because let's be honest, data is the future tech and AI is the future. So it therefore follows that. It would make sense that we give. Our next generation, which grew up with this technology, right? Hands-on experience with how do you, uh, uh, train these LLMs?

Steven: How, how [00:27:00] does quantum computing work? How, um, how do we research new ways to enhance the efficacy or the, uh, energy efficiency of this technologies? Which obviously energy is a huge. Not, not yet an inhibiting factor, but we are gobbling up more and more and more energy and we're, uh, for these data centers and we're only going to increase that.

Steven: So I think it increasing efficiency needs to be at the forefront of what we're currently doing. So energy does need to be a consideration. We can't just continue to. Use antiquated grids and overwhelm them with the immense amount of power that's consumed by these. Incredible AI components, right? These data centers are, they're, they're not cheap, but they're going up regardless.

Steven: AI is going to advance regardless, so we need to make [00:28:00] sure that we are doing it, um, in a responsible manner, and we're not going to overwhelm and just basically turn out all the lights in certain. Jurisdictions or countries, uh, I don't see that happening, but it does need to be in consideration. So what I'm doing is making sure that our next generation, the thinkers, the doers, are going to have access to hands-on learning with, uh, top state-of-the-art technology that.

Steven: Covers both the ai, the machine learning aspect, as well as quantum computing. I have yet to, uh, ink a deal for a quantum computing program, but I'm working on, uh, on negotiations with a few entities for a couple of those to get those ro rocking and rolling. As far as I, your audience knows every, probably knows a lot about ai, so, and how.

Steven: LLMs work, machine learning, all that fun stuff. So I won't bore you with that. The kind of, the, the thing that a lot of people don't understand necessarily may [00:29:00] or may not be quantum computing, and that's because nobody knows we are, uh, still in our infancy on this and the, there's a lot of debate about what's the best method, the best path forward, it operates on quantum mechanics.

Steven: If you talk to a physicist, some will disagree with this statement, but the vast majority of physicists don't even understand quantum mechanics to a deep level. Obviously we understand the basics of it, we understand how it works, but we are still at the large Hadron and Collider in Geneva. We're still finding new particles.

Steven: We're finding, um. In new variations of quarks, we're finding all of these different things that really shouldn't exist. Now we're talking about quantum entanglement, which has gone from a theoretical right to an an actual experimental fact. We have actually [00:30:00] achieved quantum entanglement, which has been fantastic, so.

Steven: And since quantum tangle, entanglement is necessary in understanding and being able to replicate that, having that capability is going, is astronomically important for the quantum computing space. But going back to what I said earlier, there's a lot of debate over the best methodology for it. I'm big on photonics.

Steven: Uh, I believe that photonic capabilities, because it can operate at room temperature, is. Significantly more appealing to me. The one of the dilemmas has been scalability. Um, so we have many companies that have achieved some great things in photonic chips. However, scaling. Photonic chips has been an issue, but I'm watching a couple companies really close that are developing some technology to be able to scale that.

Steven: And if they can achieve this, I believe that that is currently the best path, path forward. What you [00:31:00] end up reading and a lot of the init, the early uh, projects leveraged or used superconducting. Chips. Right? So that's what you hear read about. You see a lot when you see those big, massive honeycomb style machines, right?

Steven: That you know exactly what I'm talking about. They, they look interesting. Um, but, but very, very large. Those are, those are operating on super cooled, uh, or hyper cooled, uh, systems. The actual. Quantum computer is yay big. It, it's very small. It operates on a very small way for a chip, but the mass amount of machinery is required to keep that thing as close to absolute zero as possible, which, I mean, that's colder than what you're gonna, uh, experience in space, right?

Steven: So very, very cold temperatures are required for the actual [00:32:00] computation to. Remain coherent. Decoherence is a big issue, so you have to be able to decrease the error rate to be able to actually trust what the computations are actually putting out. Right? So superconducting it requires a significant amount of energy.

Steven: There's a lot of drawbacks to it. Will we actually get to the point where it, we have workable, scalable. Quantum technology. Absolutely. Now, what does that mean? That's going to, it's gonna have dramatic implications for so many different things. Obviously it's going to help with accelerate ai. I believe that it's going to help with a lot of neurotech, because neurotech, I do not know personally.

Steven: If we are going to get to a point, I think we're gonna hit a threshold. So a lot of people, when they're, you're talking about super intelligence, I think we're going to hit a limit with. With binary code ones and zeros. Right. I don't [00:33:00] think, and I could be wrong on this, but based on my understanding and looking at the complexity of the human brain and what goes into it, you're talking about 86 billion neurons and trillions of synap synaptic connections between those neurons, and then we're not even talking about the chemical reactions that are transpiring on a every millisecond.

Steven: To do basic operations, right? The fact that it, that is the most sophisticated computer that sits inside your head, right? Five pounds replicating that capability. The human reasoning, I believe it is somewhat quantum in nature. I believe that we're not going to be able to replicate the ability to have human nuanced reasoning capabilities leveraging binary code.

Steven: I. It is it possible to achieve? So currently agentic AI is fantastic, right? We, we made the, the [00:34:00] leap from generative AI to, uh, age agentic AI now, right? We're, we're seeing amazing. I believe that we're going to slow to marginal incremental advancements from this point. It doesn't matter how. Much you feed it, how much you rewire it, and what you train this AI with, you're going to have a certain limit.

Steven: I believe A GEI already exists obviously. How do you quantify a GI? That's a whole nother topic in discussion. I believe there is a limit to how smart computers can get with current technology. Um, I believe that quantum computing is necessary in order for us to develop super intelligent. Ai, uh, just because I believe that that is how the biological computational network that's sitting inside your skull operates.

Steven: And I believe that if we do not achieve a [00:35:00] scalable quantum computing capability, we will never achieve super intelligence with ai. 

Mehmet: Uh, I would say what we are witnessing correctly, Steven, is, uh, you know, it, you know, real time. We are witnessing the evolution. Uh, yes, it's, it's not necessarily biological evolution, but it's like machine evolution, I would say.

Mehmet: Yeah. Because what's happening currently and you know, I think the trigger was, and. All. It's not, I cannot say like it's one tech or like one innovation that caused the whole thing. It's like a sequence, right? But of course we have these spikes that happen sometimes. So since the moment. Which now people call it the chat GPT moment, although like yeah, you know, GPT was there like three, four years before.

Mehmet: But I mean, since that moment I think we start to be on this, you know, slope, which is going like, you know, in the upper side. Uh, maybe I'm [00:36:00] not an expert to your point, but I think, you know, we reached the phase. It's not like we're gonna slow in a sense, like we're gonna stop. Right. It's just gonna. And by the way, it's.

Mehmet: I just said to someone the other day, I said, I think we need to take a breath a little bit also as well, because as a humans, all the things that are happening, you know, in especially in the AI world, people are still not getting it right. So people still, they think, okay, we are in a hype. Or like, maybe this is something similar to the first days of the internet, probably right?

Mehmet: But it's on a larger scale because actually it's not like a bubble, it's not a hype, it's actual thing which is happening. And this is, it relates to, you know, to the next thing I want to ask you about, like at the end of the day, you are an investor, Steven, and you look at things also. From business perspective, you're an entrepreneur as well, of course.

Mehmet: So how are you seeing, you know, [00:37:00] the whole concept of return on investment, the way like businesses are done within an age where every day you have something new, you can be disrupted in no time. So how do people cope with that? And from an investor perspective, how do I expect, like what I'm betting on today, really gonna give me the yield that I'm hoping for in the future?

Steven: Sure. My take on it is if something is important enough and has significant ramifications and implications for accelerating human humanity into the future, it has to happen. It's going to happen. That is always the bet that I'm gonna make. Uh, now choosing the right companies that are developing the technology to get you there, that's where you have to really be a little bit.

Steven: Uh, you know, choosy, right? But that's, to me, it's always going to be a good bet. Now, I'm not as [00:38:00] concerned with ROI, I don't really focus on, uh, making, okay? So my goal is from a financial perspective. Within five years, I want to see x return. That's more of a vc. Thought process. Right? That's how they think.

Steven: It's all about the bottom line for me, it, I kind of adopted the Elon Musk, uh, thought process where this needs to happen. It's going to happen. I'm going to get, make it happen. The obvious return on investment is when it comes to fruition, right? So you dumping. Millions or billions of dollars into technology to colonize Mars, right?

Steven: Or the propulsion systems that are going to give us the exploratory power to, or ability to expand our footprint off of this rock. To your point earlier, that's something that needs to happen. So assuming that what I say is correct, that we are gonna have [00:39:00] the capability to, uh. To bypass biological aging, biological death.

Steven: Your point was valid. And that's something that a lot of people are talking about. So we are currently sitting on a confined environment, right? There's limit, there's a finite amount of resources. There's a finite amount of space. So what happens if you eradicate or bypass the death process? Well then the population is going to swell.

Steven: That is a consideration. So what happens? We have to simultaneously have the capability to expand our footprint off of our confined environment. So this is something minute that is not. Pie in the sky. Hope it happens. This is something that has to happen, so humans are going to figure it out. Now. It's so for me, that's a good bet when you're talking about developing the technology to actually expand our human footprint out of [00:40:00] our bio, our, our environmental confinement.

Steven: That is always gonna be something that will pay off in spades. Now will it be. Five years, 10 years, 20 years in the future. That's something that I personally don't look at. Um, when I look at something, I don't look at timeframe. I look at is this something that's going to happen? If it is, that's where I'm going.

Mehmet: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, talking about even investment in general, uh, so pe when you invest in tech, like I, please, I would speak from my. Personal experience, you know, it's not, of course, like everyone wants return, let's not hide it. But yeah, to your point, like, we want to see the impact on this. And I see Steven, like you are into, you know, this impact on advancing the human civilization, right?

Mehmet: So getting, getting us in a place where, um, we don't have. People dying, let's say, from diseases that can be cured using technology. Uh, maybe having, you [00:41:00] know, uh, the amount of time that today we put in. I would call it silly stuff. You know, I remember when I started the podcast, I was like, big, uh, advocate for automation, not AI even, because people, they, they sometime mix both.

Mehmet: And I say like. If you currently today, you go and do a repetitive task and you call it a job, like you should, you should have a second thought about it, right? Like, because yes, I think you know, us as humans and with all the creativity, uh, that we have all, you know, the. The thing that we have done so far in our history, I would say.

Mehmet: So I think we are much more capable of just doing some silly, repetitive task and you know, like this is, again, I'm not sure like who's, who's, uh, thought I would be mimicking here, but I, this is my own, you know, take on it. Plus I always ask this question, which I think you kind of indirectly answered that, Steven, which [00:42:00] about, um.

Mehmet: If we are in a world where we have all this abundance, what we should be doing, and I tell people we should go and enjoy, right? Go and enjoy, discover, you know, enjoy your life. Like why, why? Like, you know, spend your entire life on doing some I. Stuff that you don't like, you know, I'm glad Again, it's, it's, it's philosophical love.

Mehmet: Yeah, please. 

Steven: I love that philosophical point, because meme again, the human brain is the most sophisticated piece of technology in existence to this date, right to this date. So we are inhibiting our own human ingenuity on repetitive tasks. Right? So currently it kills me to your point, I, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, if you're not automating, automating [00:43:00] these repetitive processes, you've got people on assembly lines that are just grab place, grab place, grab place.

Steven: That to me is such a waste of human potential that. Is a human brain that has the ability to think, has the ability to act, has the ability to create, has the what? Ai. A lot of people are concerned about job loss, about disruption. When you're talking about a agentic AI coming in and replacing certain jobs, and you've got robotics, we're gonna see a mass.

Steven: Integration, integration of humanoid robots in the workforce, uh, combined with agentic ai. So yes, that should be done, but what that is going to allow is it's going to, or what it can, what it's, what's possible is it will make way for humans to do what I believe humans were designed to do, [00:44:00] create, explore, think how do we take our.

Steven: Relatively, uh, I hate to say that we're still in the stone ages, but that's kind of how I feel is we are just getting started. Uh, we are, we're a baby in our cave earth being our little cave, right? And we're just, how do we expand? How do we get into the cosmos? How do we understand what the universe is made of?

Steven: Right? So we're, we're still exploring. Quantum physics and quantum mechanics and for trying to figure out what dark matter is. Why is the universe expanding? What's the firming paradox? What, there's all these things that need additional brains, additional analysis, and I believe that automations, ai, robotics, these are all things that once they replace these jobs, these jobs should be replaced.

Steven: That's gonna be a, a very, a very controversial soundbite right there. Jobs, repetitive jobs should be replaced because it is a [00:45:00] waste of human ingenuity and potential. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Uh, Stephen, like, you know, we, we can keep going on, on, on and on and on, uh, but I promise we're gonna have series of, of this with you because I think, you know, we have also like.

Mehmet: Similar, uh, you know, kind of, of, uh, way of taking things and thinking about them. Now, if you want to leave the audience with maybe kind of, you know, final thought, uh, what you would tell us, especially about the future, because I know like you focus on this and where people can get in touch with you. 

Steven: My messages.

Steven: Don't be afraid of innovation. Innovation is coming and it is a good thing. There's so much negativity If you read the mainstream media or listen to the mainstream media, if you listen to all the doomsdayers that are out there saying, AI's gonna be the end of us, or, uh, you know this, that there's all this negativity [00:46:00] that is around innovation that has never changed.

Steven: Innovation is not to be feared. Innovation progress should constantly. Take place, it should happen. Uh, now I don't see that as inhibiting to lifestyles or humanity at all. I think that is going to accelerate us into a prosperous future where we're living in symbiotic harmony with. AI with humanoids, and it is just going to be this beautiful utopia.

Steven: Obviously, I take a positive outlook over a pessimistic one every day, but my biggest message is don't be afraid of what's coming. What's coming is going to be absolutely beautiful. We are going to free ourselves. Now. There's going to be a lot of things that have to transpire, so we're gonna have to have those conversations that are above my pay grade, right?

Steven: So do we have to have a. If a certain amount of jobs are replaced, what does that look like for humanity? 'cause we can't [00:47:00] have homelessness. We can't have poverty. Um, we have to make sure that we are, everyone should be fed. We should be, um, not necessarily eliminating disparity, but raising the bar to where every single mouth on earth is fed the.

Steven: Homelessness should never be an issue. If that requires some sort of universal basic income, where does that come from? Is that a taxation on, uh, the companies that are actually making the money? There's so many. That's a another topic of discussion, but regardless of how we get there, we should get there and fear of change, fear of.

Steven: Uh, the eminent disruption to what you are currently comfortable with in your day-to-day lives should never be something that keeps humanity from progressing. 

Mehmet: Absolutely have we get in 

Steven: touch. Best way is, sorry, I, I glazed over that one. [00:48:00] Um, LinkedIn. I'm very active on there. I'm on there every day, so, uh, there is, that's the best way.

Steven: If you want to reach out to me, just uh, uh, find me. If you type in Steven Zeller, I'm probably gonna be the first one that pops up. There's not that many of us. Um, and you can just. Send me a friend request, send me a message. Uh, if you have any questions about the topics that we discussed or wanted to pick my brain on anything, or you have a pitch deck you want to send my way, please uh, reach out on LinkedIn.

Mehmet: Great, Steven. And just before you know, I, I close, uh, to your point, just, uh, final thing I want to say, please. History proved to us, and I think, you know, maybe some people, their problem is they don't read history. You know, like these moments right. Happened even in ancient history. And you know what? We survived.

Mehmet: Like guys the wheel. 

Steven: The wheel took jobs. 

Mehmet: Yeah, exactly. Guys, we survived. If you don't believe me, here we all, here we are like we are alive, me and Steven here today. But jokes aside, [00:49:00] always there will be these people who gonna. They make living just scaring other people, so. Right. And I'm happy because we reach a face and I was telling a friend the other day, the best invention in life that human have done is that before we were.

Mehmet: You know, writing history, actually we're not even writing it. So we're, you know, getting history based on word of mouth. Right. But now we have this multimedia thing where everything is, you know, documented. So guys go back just not long ago, so when they said the internet gonna end everything, when they said, you know, I don't know, we, we saw a lot of examples.

Mehmet: So, to, to your point, Steven. Yes. Uh, how we gonna do, we gonna do it, I'm sure about it. And for the link. Don't go search. I gotta make the life easy. You will find it in the show notes. So if you're listening on your favorite podcasting app, you'll find it in the show notes. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll find the description.

Mehmet: Steven, thank you very much for this rich conversation today. I'm sure we're gonna have like part two and [00:50:00] maybe part three even. Um, this is for the audience. If you just discovered this podcast, hope you enjoyed it. Give us a thumb up, subscribe and share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you are one of the people who keep coming again and again, thank you for very much for all your support.

Mehmet: Thank you for also making us this year really special, getting on the top 200 charts in multiple countries at the same time. This never happened before in the past two years, so thank you for all you know what you are doing for the CTO show. And as I say, always stay tuned for a new episode very soon.

Mehmet: Thank you. Bye-bye.