#459 Hiring Like a Poker Pro: Joel Quintela’s POKER Framework for Better Decisions

[00:00:00] 
 

Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to the new episode, episodes of the CT O Show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me, Joel Quintela. Joel, thank you very much for being here with me today. The way I love to do it Yes. Is I keep it to my guests to introduce themself. Okay. Tell us a bit more about you, your [00:01:00] journey, your experience.

Mehmet: It's a very rich one, but I always prefer my guests to to share that. And we're gonna talk about a. Topic, which is I think very, very, very important perception to reality. Just, I'm giving some hints to the audience. That's correct. But I gotta, I gotta keep it to you and then we can start the discussion from there.

Mehmet: So the floor is yours. 

Joel: Very good. Well, thank you very much for having me. I'm, I'm, I'm excited to talk with you. Um, yeah, my, so my background is, uh, I'm a, I'm a business psychologist. Um. But I started off as a computer systems engineer, so, uh, that means, you know, uh, high school and even into college. Uh, and then I found psychology and just went and it seems like it's a 180, you know, computer, uh, programming versus psychology, but it isn't.

Joel: Uh, it also helps, uh, me as a company, um, set up some technology for Fortune five hundreds to help them. Uh, hire better people. So it's typically we implementing assessments like a personality assessment, an IQ test, a role [00:02:00] play, uh, interviews, um, so that our companies can hire better people, which means more money for them.

Joel: Um, you know, hiring is a predict predictive, you know, uh, game. You, you have to, you know, you don't know if I'm, you know, interviewing today, whether you're gonna do well in three months or six months. So I have to do whatever I can during the hiring process to increase the probability of my correct answer.

Joel: So, uh, for example, if you're, if you're just doing informal interviews, uh, you might as well just flip a coin 'cause you, you're not, you're just not gonna make the right decision. So there's a, a better way to interview, um, to make better decisions. And that's, that's the kind of stuff we help. I. You know, our companies, they're typically, you know, fortune Global five hundreds, um, that are doing a lot of hiring.

Joel: And for them it's maximize hits and minimize misses, essentially. And there's a way to do [00:03:00] that. There's a way to increase probability of success. 

Mehmet: Cool. That's what we do. 

Joel: The India. 

Mehmet: Great. Thank you Joel again for being here with me today. Just, you know, as a joke, you know, there's a saying, uh, you know, here in the region where I live, uh, it is like, it's like when you buy a water watermelon, you don't know how you look inside.

Mehmet: Yeah, exactly. It's so, it's got kind like, uh, this, uh, you know. Came to my mind. But Joel, let's start. Let's start. You know, the way I love to dissect, you know, any topic is to go and go back to the roots of the problem, right? Yeah, correct. So, and try and trying to see. You know, uh, and hiring. I discussed this couple of times, you know, here on the show, and it was always one of these topics that, 

Joel: yeah, 

Mehmet: people have perception about it also as well, I would say.

Mehmet: Yeah. So let's start to dissect and see, you know, what are the main problems. That organization face when they go with a traditional approach of hiring without assessments. [00:04:00] And maybe this is what pushed you and you spotted something that said, okay, I need to be doing something about this. So I would love to hear, you know, the background of, of the story, why you came out and, and decided to, to pursue this.

Joel: Yeah, it actually just fell in love with psychology in general, um, social psychology. But I, I didn't, uh, I didn't wanna just sit in a, I always say in an ivory tower and just talk about things for days and, you know, without any real solutions. So I wanted to take what I was learning in those, uh, graduate school and actually apply it to the real world.

Joel: And, you know, what better place to, to do it, um, than in the workplace. 'cause you're spending, you're probably spending more time at work than you are at home. Um, so, uh, it's a huge, it's a huge, uh, impact in your life. And what we wanted to do, just, uh, make sure that our companies are, are making better hires so that not only helps the company themselves, but also the individual.

Joel: [00:05:00] So you as an individual shouldn't be in a role that you shouldn't be in. Um, so it is a communication, but you know, the hiring is. Arguably one of the most important things that a company can do, uh, to make sure that they succeed and excel. Um, so that became pretty obvious to me. I mean, mainly 'cause I, I worked around in different places and, you know, some of them didn't work out and eventually I found out that I'm not really employable, I guess, right?

Joel: So I decided to build my own company and try to help others, you know, do better. Um, but for me it was more of a motivational thing, uh, versus an ability I. Um, so performance in the end is a function of ability and motivation that's in an environment. Uh, but I was noticing quickly that, you know, my motivation was different in different companies even though I was doing the same exact thing.

Joel: So in one company I was doing very well. In some other company, I wasn't doing very well. So I started thinking, oh, wait a minute. Uh, what's, what's happening here? It's not [00:06:00] that I'm changing. Um, it's just the environment is changing and the requirements of the role are changing. So. There must be a, a link, a direct link between what's required in the role and the person to, uh, to make sure that person not only stays, but also excels in the role because I saw it in me, um, and it paid off for me and it paid off for the company.

Joel: I just made more money for the companies. Where eventually I said, I, I don't, I, I'd prefer not to make other people rich. Now I'm gonna, I'm gonna switch it and, uh, do my own thing. Uh, just, just like this, right? Because it's a big issue and it's very, you know, it's a very real, uh, value and you know, if you hire better people, you make more money.

Joel: If you hire bad people, you lose money. And it's worse for a small entrepreneur. A price of a bad hire for a small [00:07:00] company is huge. It's much more, uh, devastating than if Walmart makes a hundred thousand bad hires. 'cause they just have to make 200 good hires, right? 200,000. Good. And, you know, they put them on the floor of the store and you know, they, they can make you a lot of money.

Joel: Um, but if you're an entrepreneur and you have a small team and you make a bad, a bad decision. That's gonna impact your entire company from not only the customers, the company itself, the morale of your teammates, um, just the entire flow of the company is disrupted if you mac about at a hire. But the problem is, uh, most entrepreneurs and me included, think that I know the best, think that I can actually, I know who, who to hire, and whatever I decide is gonna be a great hire.

Joel: That's not true. It's not, it's not true, uh, because you, you know, there are things you should be [00:08:00] doing in that conversation to make sure you're making a good, a good decision. But most entrepreneurs are kind of thinking their heads 'cause they're pretty good at what they do, right? So, you know, why not, you know, think you're the best at making hires?

Joel: 'cause, you know, and the reality is you don't properly, but it's, it's a hard, uh, it's a hard thing for entrepreneurs to get over. That if you say, listen, you're not making good decisions, you're not making great hires. You know when it's, when it's actually obvious, right? They're, they're not. It's a, they actually hired somebody that made a, you know, hired a CTO, they just went south and, you know, now you lost, you know, a quarter of your, you know, your clients 'cause you made a bad hire and you know, you didn't necessarily do what you should have done when you were actually talking to that, to that, uh, CTO.

Mehmet: Right. So it looks to me, and I've seen it by the way, I, I can fully relate to a lot of things that I've seen people doing. Yeah. Um, but I would like maybe to call and correct me royal [00:09:00] if, if I'm wrong. Yeah. Like kind of blind spots. Right. So, yeah. Um. So what do you think, like these blind spots, you know, are, you know, and is it like, and again, talking about perception, like I can relate to one thing and maybe you can give us more use cases.

Mehmet: Yeah. So for example, one of the things I've seen people doing, uh, especially, you know, when, when, when they are kind of a startup Yeah. So they go and hire someone from maybe a bigger company. Yeah. And they, and they think, okay, if we bring this sales leader here. He gonna make magic, right? Mm-hmm. Or if we go and hire, let's say, let's go technical, A CTO, a VP of engineering.

Mehmet: Yeah. And you know, like the guy would have like huge names under his belt. Yeah. He comes and after a couple of months, if not, you know, probably maybe one year maximum. Oh yeah. It, it was a bad hire, so 

Joel: Yeah. 

Mehmet: You know. [00:10:00] Like, I, I want to know why we fall in these blind spots, and maybe you can shed some light on, and maybe here were the assessments that you help organizations to do Yeah.

Mehmet: Comes into the picture. So how we can avoid these blind spots. 

Joel: Yeah, that's a, that's a good point. Uh, the huge blind spot is that, especially for salespeople, by the way, you know, salespeople will tell you that, that they're great, um, at selling anything. So it doesn't matter which company they're in, it doesn't matter what they're selling, they can do everything.

Joel: And that is not true. It's exactly what you're saying, which is if you go from one company, it could be the same exact job title, with the same exact job description, uh, and you move them to another company with the same title, same job description. Those are not the same jobs. For example, that company may be in a different, uh, maturity level than somebody else.

Joel: So. Uh, you know, account executive IBM is not the same as account executive in a startup, even though the job title and description [00:11:00] is exactly the same, it's very different. Um, but you know, we, we all fall into that trap that, you know, like you were saying, it's got a whole bunch of, you know, is impressive.

Joel: They're telling me, you know, and they're really good at communication 'cause they're great salespeople. That they can sell anything. And you know, I take their word for it. They come in and they fail. Um, because you as the owner didn't do the work that you needed to do to really identify exactly what the requirements are for your job.

Joel: So don't look at the title, don't look at the job description. 'cause frankly, those are all pretty bad. Anyway, you need to sit down and think realistically about what it is that you. Are gonna need them to do and what skills and competencies they're gonna need to do that. And then what that environment is that you're gonna put them in, because that has a huge impact.

Joel: There's a person environment match [00:12:00] in addition to a person job match. So, uh, when you do in person job, you look at the job, what's required. You see the person has those things, but you also do the same thing for an environment. You see, what are the major motivators and demotivators of that job? And by the way, you may be one of those demotivators as a manager, um, which sometimes I am a little bit right, sort of, uh, you know, perfectionist to some extent.

Joel: Uh, but you need to be very realistic about what those are. Because once you're talking to somebody, you need to ask 'em those questions. Simple as, Hey, look, have you ever worked with a, uh, a leader that's very, you know, as a perfectionist, you know? And how did that go? Did you like that? Did you not like that?

Joel: Because when you get day one, you're gonna deal with a perfectionist, right? Uh, so I need to know if you've done that at some point. Because, you know, if you haven't then it's gonna be, you know, rude awakening for both of us, right? So, but you as the owner, [00:13:00] it is your responsibility as owner to figure out what those things are, and you're the only one that can do that.

Joel: And you have to just look inward and be honest about what that's gonna be, which is another blind spot, by the way. And that'll get us into perception in a second. Um, but you have to just suck it up and go, listen, you know, making money is more important than my ego. So I better, I better be realistic that sometimes I'm the de-motivator in this situation.

Joel: So you have to figure out, you know, what is your job? Don't look at the job description, don't look at, uh, even ai, don't trust AI to tell you because they don't know your, you know, your business. They don't know who you are. They don't know who the, you know, your, your customers are and your, your, your team.

Joel: So you need to do this. Um, and if you don't do this, you're gonna, you're gonna make a bad hire and that's gonna be really bad for you. Plus you're gonna pay this person a lot of money, so you're gonna lose, you know, 10 months of, you know, salary for a salesperson. So, you know, forget your ego. Sit [00:14:00] down and actually list those and, you know, get your team members to do the same thing.

Joel: 'cause you have to have that, you have to be very clear about that is and then you can decide what sort of questions you're gonna ask each individual, uh, candidate. What kind of assessments? We do recommend assessments 'cause. They're very objective, you know, ways of, uh, showing you something that maybe you didn't even know and you didn't think of.

Joel: 'cause, um, you know, some of those assessments can, you know, bring out something that somebody doesn't wanna tell you, or you know, somebody that's a really good interviewer, you, they're telling you that is greatest a teamwork. Okay, let me, let me see if you are, and you can triangulate, use an assessment role, play interview to get a better idea of who they are and whether they fit this thing that you've created.

Joel: And that's the way to maximize your, your, um, predictive power. That's a better way of increasing the chances that that person's [00:15:00] gonna do well. So, one, they're gonna stay, and two, they're gonna do well. Now a person environment fit tends to drive whether they stay 

Mehmet: right 

Joel: person job fit tends to drive, whether they're gonna do well.

Joel: So people, 

Mehmet: yeah. Yeah. So sorry Joel, like, uh, uh, where, because I, I want to go back to the thing about, you know, getting out of the ego. So I'm, I'm curious to know where, where should they, they start? Like what, what is the starting point for, for doing this? It's very important, I think. 

Joel: Yeah. Um, for the, for looking at the profile itself and trying to figure out.

Joel: But there are tools, and by the way, we, we have them and that this is what we do with big companies. 'cause you know, when you're hiring, no matter what it is, you, you need to first sit down and figure out what that is. You need to know what those skills are. You need to know the competencies are, you need to know what the environment is like and don't trust AI to do that.

Joel: You can, you can use AI to give you an [00:16:00] initial list and that's okay, but you are the only one that knows what the true requirements are of the job. What your environment is, what your motivators and demos are, that job. Um, so you have to, what we do is enlist other team members so that it's five of you, uh, deciding which competencies are required, which skills are required, which environment, you know, characteristics or motivators are.

Joel: And so I have these five to 10 people answering the same questions, and then I put it all together. So that now we know these 10 individuals said these eight competencies are required, and they all said the same thing independently. Uh, and same thing for motor emo. So it, the tool, essentially we call it a job profile, so it helps organizations get out of their heads.

Joel: They actually see a list of these things, uh, so that they can actually make [00:17:00] objective decisions. And then you have other people doing the same exact thing that you are so that you know when you come together and talk about it, and the five individuals say the same thing and you say something else, well, that you're probably not correct, right?

Joel: It's probably, you know, these other folks. So you, you need to use tools, uh, to help you do that. And for us, it's just a job profile. It just makes it easy. I send you a list of, you know, your, your team members, your experts. Send them a list of competencies, you know, which ones are important for this job. Um, you do the same thing, your other experts, and we bring it together and say this, this is what everybody said, these are the competency you required.

Joel: So it's just a simple tool that to help you do that, you know, otherwise, you know, you're just sort of flying by and you're gonna trust AI to, you know. Tell you something that is probably not true for your, your company, especially if you're an entrepreneur. I mean, you haven't tried AI at the, you know, now [00:18:00] you, you know that it's not, not correct, right.

Joel: You know, 70% might be okay, but you know, and 30% isn't, isn't, you just don't know which 30% it's okay, which one isn't. So, you know, you need to use tools that, that actually provide them structure and help you do that. And again, for us as a job profile, 'cause that that is the foundation for everything we do.

Joel: Uh, in, in, um, on the job. It's not only selection, getting the right people in, but it's also leadership development. You still need to have that profile that says, um, this is required in this particular role, and then maybe you do a 360. And if you've done those, where, where, uh, uh, you get a survey, same competencies your manager does, your peers do, your customers maybe, and they're rating you on the same competencies.

Joel: So you have eight competencies and you, you're rating yourself on one to five on those eight, and then everybody else is rating you on the same competencies on that five point scale. And in the [00:19:00] end you get to see your manager said you were a five, you said you were a two, there's something you know, disconnected, or you said you were five, your managers and your direct reports said you were a two.

Joel: So, uh, it's a good, it's a good way to hold up a mirror, but it starts with that profile, that same profile that you created. Uh, and then performance management is the same exact thing. You have to still use that profile to have your manager, uh, in that case, your manager, um, you know, right where you are.

Joel: And then succession planning is the, the fifth component, essentially. So you have to identify critical roles. You know, you know, most companies, you know, large companies have some kind of a. You know, if your C-suite was hit by a bus, who could jump into those roles very quickly. So companies, uh, put a lot of effort in in coming up with, uh, for CEO these are the five people that can jump in for, you know, my VP of whatever these are the five people can succession plan.[00:20:00] 

Joel: Uh, but those are also driven by those profiles. Um, so you can match the profile of that critical role to the nominees of that role. Um, so profile, you gotta get that right, and the only way to do that is to actually use a really simple tool to get you to do that, otherwise just flying blind essentially.

Joel: And you get that wrong. You get everything else wrong. 

Mehmet: Right. Uh, Joel, out of curiosity. So, uh, of, of course, like there are, you know, you know this better than me, so there's a lot of psychological things here. Yeah. That, uh, goes in one of that. And, you know, I always ask this question, especially when there's kind of, you know, I've seen these kinds of, um, I would say.

Mehmet: Old style, I would say. Yeah. Kind of questionnaire that they ask you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you can always, as a candidate, answer the, the best thing, right? Yeah. So what is the way really to, to do some filtering here and what's the best way, or like some of the [00:21:00] strategies you really want this candidate? To profile himself or herself.

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. Correct. In the most realistic way back to reality. Correct. So what are, like some of the techniques, like, uh, yeah, you've, you've seen it successful, 

Joel: so it, it'll get into the perception to reality, you know, component that I wanna talk about in a little bit. Um, yes. You know, whenever I tell people what I do, they have the same reaction.

Joel: Oh, you, you create those assessments that nobody likes to take, or you use that. Weird kind of questioning, you know, in your interviews that are really hard to do. Uh, the answer is yes, we do. And by the way, we know that people are gonna try to fake, you know, the assessment. So there are items in there that give us a hint of whether, you know, how you're, you're actually, uh, uh, responding to the assessment itself.

Joel: So we kind of know that, hey, look, you're really trying to make yourself look great, or even on their side, you're really very critical of yourself or someone in the middle. So, you know, those, there are things baked [00:22:00] into the assessments themselves. I. That give you an insight on whether somebody's, you know, trying to fool you in some sense, in an interview.

Joel: Uh, we use more of a structured approach where you have very specific questions, essentially tied to the, the things you have to do on the job. Uh, I'm just sort of asking you if you've ever done that before and tell me what happened kind of thing. Um, uh, but the other, the, the important part of it is that you have to, you have to use multiple pieces of information.

Joel: For that particular position. So you have a profile, let's say you have six competencies, you should have two or three ways of measuring each one of those throughout the entire process. And you know you're gonna do, you know, initial interviews, screens, you might have an assessment, you might have a, a better assessment or a role play down the road, have some interview questions.

Joel: So you essentially need to have those six competencies and then just measure them in different ways. [00:23:00] And if they all say the same thing, you can be pretty confident that it's true. So you're triangulating getting as much information as possible in different ways. Um, because yeah, some people are just really good at interviewing, you know, but if I have three other points, data points that say they're terrible team members, I'm gonna have to trust that component, you know, versus maybe even my own judgment that I'm, you know, seeing before my eyes.

Joel: So you, you have to triangulate, you have to use multiple pieces of information to get to the truth or reality essentially. 

Mehmet: Right. Joel, you mentioned something about, uh, you know, the process of, you know, the, and let's, I would, I would like to call it the interviewing journey, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. So probably you start.

Mehmet: Maybe with a talent acquisition, whether internal or external. Uh, so they, they, so they have a setup of questions. Then you sit with the hiring manager and then you [00:24:00] sit with, uh, uh, probably another peer, and then, you know, the final, usually the final step would be the role play or whatever. Mm-hmm. But. I, I'm trying to be not kind of, uh, devil advocate here, but Yeah, please do.

Mehmet: Yeah. Yeah. So, so one of the things here is, you know, I, I gotta stop on the role playing little bit here. Yeah, please. Um, so the role playing, especially in sales role, they do it a lot. So for the audience, and if you are like just a founder and you're gonna hire, you're gonna, you're gonna hear this later from your CRO Pro, probably.

Mehmet: Yeah. Um, so, so role playing. So you give a scenario, right? Yeah. And then you ask the person to answer the questions, or maybe first to do a presentation a certain way. But again, I. Uh, yeah, sometimes, and we discuss this a lot, like yeah. How, how authentic I would call it or like how Yeah. Realistic. Yeah. So it's a role [00:25:00] playing at the end.

Mehmet: Right. So, so the guy of course, he or she, they will try their best to give the best answers, right? Yeah. Uh, are there like other things you would measure there? I mean. You've talked about data points and, you know, 

Joel: yeah. 

Mehmet: I'm a tech guy by, by trade, so I'm interested to know how we can collect really, you know, in, in a role play interview.

Mehmet: Yeah. These data points. I, I'm really curious. Yeah, exactly. And it's, 

Joel: you know, I'm a data geek as well, and it's, and it's like, uh, I don't know if you, you guys saw the, the movie Moneyball, you know, in the, in the US essentially with the, you know, professional baseball. A couple of decades ago, somebody finally figured out that if I take off those data points, uh, and maybe they don't look like they, they are matched or even go with each other, but if I use those data points, I can increase my probability of actually making, um, uh, hiring somebody or recruiting somebody that actually does really well.

Joel: That's exactly what we're doing now. Um, [00:26:00] to your point, there are, there are good assessments that are out there and there are some really. Terrible assessments that are out there and role plays, you have to be fairly careful on, on how that is structured. So there are some key components of a, of a role play that you need to have in order for it to actually give you good information.

Joel: Now we come across a lot of, uh, sales executives that say, alright, for my sales candidate, I just go say, you know, here's a pin. Why don't you go and sell this pin? Go ahead. And then it just wide open. Or they give you a sentence or a paragraph, uh, like a background and then say, okay, go ahead and go ahead and, you know, sell this or try to try to get into the role.

Joel: Those are terrible assessments. Um, they're terrible personality tests. They're terrible, uh, IQ assessments. They're terrible interview [00:27:00] questions, so you have to be fairly careful on, you know, whether this. This assessment is actually set up fairly correctly. It's not rocket science, by the way. Um, but you know, we, we do help a lot of companies and even our clients come to us and say, Hey, this vendor came and said this is the great test.

Joel: What do you think? And you look at it and you go, wow, this is, this is horrible. Um, so, you know, there's people like me that you can go ask for advice, but there are good assessments and there are terrible assessments. And role plays are a big, a big, uh, you know, a big issue. 'cause a lot of companies build their own role plays.

Joel: Which, you know, our clients do the same thing, by the way. Um, and sometimes they're looking at us going, you shouldn't even, don't even waste your time. You're not gonna, you're not gonna get anything good at it. You know, you're gonna, you know, make the candidate feel terrible and they're looking at you and going, I have no idea why this is even relevant.

Joel: You know, you're asking me and all of a sudden you as a candidate, you know, don't like the company and I'm not gonna buy from you, you know, kind of a thing. Uh, so you have to be really careful [00:28:00] that, that you're setting up the right assessment. Um, and it's a decent assessment and it can actually, um, tell you what you want to measure.

Joel: That's, it's one of the, it's one of the components when we're building assessments. You, you have to, you have to follow certain procedures to, to, uh, make sure that they're actually measuring what they're measuring. If I say they're measuring team role or team, um, relationships, I should make sure that that test is measuring that.

Joel: For you and for somebody else. And for somebody else. It's just that, you know, you just have to do some steps to make sure that, that it's actually doing that. And a lot of people don't, especially with ai, you know, these days it's, you know, I can just create an assessment and maybe it looks kind of cool, uh, but you have no idea if it's actually works, right?

Joel: Just 'cause it looks cool. So you have to be careful. Uh, role plays are, are good, are good assessment, but you gotta make sure that it's working. Maybe the ones that you, you had were really simple, where they just threw out a, you know, scenario and said, my man, go ahead. You know, tell me, you know, [00:29:00] you know, come up with your own, you know, response or whatever.

Joel: Those are terrible. Uh, they don't, you know, they don't, they don't measure anything besides maybe, uh, you know, your communication style I guess. But, uh. But there are, there are differences in terms of assessments. It's like everything else, right? You know, there, there are different qualities of, you know, um, you know, software packages, for example.

Joel: Some are good and some aren't, you know, tech stacks and kind of, okay, some of 'em not, right? They sort of don't work together. Um, so it's just that, you know, making sure you're assessing, you know, the right, the right, uh, things. And again, it, it ties back to that profile. Um, so you gotta be cut fairly careful on what you're, you're picking as an assessment.

Joel: You know, people like me can spot them fairly quickly. You know, is this okay? No, it's terrible. Don't do that one. If you wanna do that, you should probably use this one over here from this vendor that's been doing it for, you know, 50 years kind of thing. And they know what they're doing. Um. [00:30:00] 

Mehmet: Yeah, Joel.

Mehmet: There's also one point, which always, it's kind of a cliche, I know. So people talks about the culture, right? So the company culture, and one of the things they say, okay, we are gonna see, or like. Usually you hear this when they give the candidate the results. Oh, we found out like you are like, you know, fit for the company culture, or, oh, we think you are not, you know, fit for our culture.

Mehmet: Yeah. So when doing the assessment here, so where is the reality and where is the perception about the culture and fitting in the culture? Yeah, 

Joel: so I, I do, I do see that quite a bit where, you know, companies are, are wanting to. You know, most big companies have their own, um, they've developed their own values or, uh, their own culture or their own principles, you know, that essentially everybody should have that's coming into the organization.

Joel: But if you're a Fortune 500, you can come up with a [00:31:00] values or principles, uh, that. I worked at Verizon Communication for, you know, many years back then. I have no idea what the mission was or the culture or the, you know, the values. What I didn't know was the culture and values of my immediate area, my immediate environment.

Joel: So my manager, my coworkers, the job itself, the sort of extended individuals that are around me. Um, that's, you know, things that are closer to you. Are the things that impact your behavior. So I, I hate when people say we're gonna measure company culture in your Fortune 500, and that culture has nothing to do with, you know, the environment you're gonna put them in 'cause it's so far away, they're not gonna know what that is, right?

Joel: So when you're doing this, you should really use the environment that's close to you. That's what impacts your behavior, not something [00:32:00] that, you know, somebody created. Five years ago or 10 years ago. It doesn't make any sense. So when you're building these things, don't look at the company culture, look at the immediate culture.

Joel: 'cause that's what impacts your behavior. 

Mehmet: That's that's interesting. Now this is like for me, Joel, it looks like also it's a mindset, right? So, so it's having this mindset, so leaders, how they can prepare, you know, probably. If they are a small company, maybe the owner, the CEO, they would be doing the hiring at the beginning by themselves.

Mehmet: Yeah. That's, that's easy kind. I'm not easy in a sense. It's easy, but I mean, it's like one person who needs to have this mindset. Yeah. But later on they're gonna start to have teams and leaders. Mm-hmm. So how do you bring that to, and you're talking about like fortune 500 companies? Yeah. So how, how to spread this.

Mehmet: Culture, I would say, I would call it culture by itself, or let's say mindset, sorry. Uh, in, in, in, [00:33:00] um, you know, acquiring this methodology of systematically doing the assessments and, you know, making sure that they are doing the, the right thing. Because again, back to perception and reality. Yeah. And you mentioned, and, and you just mentioned at the beginning, Joel.

Mehmet: Yeah. The aim of every company is to, yeah. Get revenue and make money. Right. It's not, that's entertain people. Yeah. So how we kind of put this mindset into the hiring managers that they're gonna start to hire their team, whether it's on the sales side or maybe on the technology side, doesn't matter, I think.

Mehmet: Yeah. So what you have seen work good for companies? 

Joel: Yeah. Well, you know, you have a culture. You know, you just don't know what it is, maybe, right? You know, you've created a culture, you've created an environment. Like I've created an environment. I may or may not know all the motivations and demos of the environment, but I have [00:34:00] created it right in my own, in my own company.

Joel: Uh, so it's there. So at least initially you need to understand what it is, and you know, you as a leader need to know that maybe it's not in your head, like you don't necessarily know. You have to, you have to allow your, your people to tell you what it is, and you not get upset about somebody telling you that, you know, you're micromanaging, you know, uh, I hate it.

Joel: Okay. I'm sorry. You have to sort of back off. So there's a humility component that you have to, you have to get over because you need to be realistic about what, what it is that you know, what your environment is. If you're gonna hire somebody into that environment. 'cause it has a huge impact on what they do and they don't do.

Joel: I'm a huge motivation guy. My dissertation was on personal environment, motivational fit. Um, so there are certain things that motivate me in general, and there are demos and [00:35:00] motivators of the job itself. So you as a leader need to know what those are. And then when I'm talking to you, I need to figure out where you are as a candidate against those things.

Joel: It's pretty simple though. And again, you know, we offer, we offer a way to quickly do that. 'cause there're only about 18 or so motivators and demotivates. That's about it. So you as a, you know, leader can go through and go, no, we don't have that. We don't have that. We have a lot of this competition. No, we don't have that.

Joel: We don't have that. We, so you can quickly go through, so when somebody's coming in, you're saying, Hey, what do you think about competition? Have you ever worked where, you know, people are just sort of, you know, going at each other and, 'cause you know, when they jump in the company, there's a lot of competition.

Joel: So it's the same thing as competencies, skills, they motivated demotivators. You just have to be realistic about those are, um, and be okay with your team coming and telling you the good and bad. 'cause, you know, best practice in general is to, is to tell the, the candidate [00:36:00] what those are. We call it a realistic job preview.

Joel: Like, I need to be very honest with a candidate and tell them, this is the cool stuff about what this role is. These are the not so great things about the role, and you need to be honest with 'em about that. Um, so they can decide, uh, you know, because in general they're gonna say, no, no, I love it. I love it, I love it.

Joel: But you have to be really realistic and go, I'm serious. You're gonna run into this and you're not gonna like it. Probably, you know, unless you, you know, you're motivated by this kind of thing. You just need to be realistic of it is, or, or you're gonna, you know, make a bad decision. 'cause you're, you know, you're just not comfortable admitting that maybe something is bad in your, in your environment.

Mehmet: Right. I think Joel, one of the, you know, positive outcomes for, you know, doing it this way is of course getting the best talent plus, um. Getting less, uh, what we call it, attrition ratios, like, which is like, yeah, correct. [00:37:00] Mm-hmm. People coming in and leaving up just a couple of months and this is where the loss comes in.

Mehmet: So, and of course you are in the HR tech, right? So, correct. You touched base on the AI part. I got it. Yeah. But maybe other than the ai, like where the technology can also, and maybe some of the things that currently you do, so maybe some other aspects of the technology that can really help in all this and bringing the reality out together from perception.

Joel: Yeah. Uh, you know, I think simplicity, uh, is a, is a big thing that you should be just an all tech, uh, but, you know, an HR tech. You know what? The way we we think about it is a number of clicks. That's our philosophy. How many clicks does it take you to do this? How many clicks does it take you to do this?

Joel: How many clicks does it take you to this? And everything we do and all of the UIs and the UX on the, you know, the, the user side, we [00:38:00] consider that we think number of clicks, uh, lead to terrible user experience. So we remove as many clicks as possible from that screen because it doesn't matter how great your process is, doesn't matter how great your assessments are, if it's a very complex process, your value goes right out the window.

Joel: So you have to keep things really simple to do this, not only in the candidate side because you're concerned about their experience. 'cause again, if you give them bad experience, they're not gonna buy from you. It's just this, the way it goes, right? If you Walmart treats you badly as a customer, you're not gonna go there, you're gonna go to Target or somewhere else, right?

Joel: Um, so you have to be, you know, careful about that, but it's also a lot of value on your side, right? Uh, I'm actually gonna get people to use it, uh, and I'm actually gonna get my hire managers to use it, uh, so they can make better decisions. But if I make things really complex for them, they're not gonna use it, even though it's a great [00:39:00] tool.

Joel: If you put too many clicks in there, they're not gonna use it. So for us, it's, it's that, and it sounds like a simple concept, but you just go out and look at any HR tech that's out there and, you know, any of the big, you know, the big companies, uh, you know, that you've probably, you know, seen out there. You know, everybody's talking about simplicity, but I wanna look on the screen.

Joel: There are a hundred, you know, buttons, there are a hundred words. There are, you know, a whole bunch of menu options. You know, when, you know, for, for us, we, we think in terms of, uh, number of clicks, but also what are the things you need to do day all the time, right? Um, versus things that needed to do every week, or things that I need to do every three weeks or every month.

Joel: And the things that you need to do all the time. That's what I put in front of you and everything else, I sort of layer it behind the scenes. But you know, a lot of people, users, especially if you're asking for their [00:40:00] feedback, they're gonna wanna put a lot of buttons and, you know, words and instructions and icons and whatever on the page.

Joel: And we have to fight sometimes and go, no, no, I'm not gonna put that on there for you. 'cause I number one. I'm gonna have to ask you, you know, whether you want a button, um, and what color do you want the button, and what word do you want in the button? And what do you want it to do when you click that button on the back end?

Joel: Uh, and then I'm gonna build it, and then I'm gonna train you to use that button, and then I have to take a support call from you that says, Hey, what is this button? So for me, I'd rather say, I'm not gonna put that button in there for you. You know, I, it is just, it's, it's also, you know, it's, it's selfish.

Joel: 'cause you know, if you don't like that button, you're not gonna say, as a customer, you know what? I'm the one that told you to put the button. I, they're gonna look at me and go, you put the button on there. So for me, you know, we strip everything off the, the [00:41:00] UIs and we keep. Uh, as much as possible off the screen, buttons, words, fields, uh, we remove them.

Joel: Uh, it's a number of clicks. Philosophy. So simplicity and, you know, if somebody says their technology is simple, but they have to train you for two weeks, it's not simple. Right. Or if I have to give you, you know, I have to, you know, set out a whole academy. Yeah, so they, with how-to videos because you know, I know that everybody, you know, doesn't understand how to do this.

Joel: They have to use how-to videos. Well then it's not simple, right? And everything we do in, you know, HR tech is not that complex. It's not rocket science, right? Uh, but, you know, we get trapped into, you know, into complexity and complexity kills value. Um, that a long answer to your short question, but. It doesn't matter how great you do everything.

Joel: I'm talking about [00:42:00] the profiles, the assessments each, each step of the way you're doing everything you want. But then if I make everything really complex, that means a lot of buttons. Doesn't matter. We, we talk in terms of predictive validity, predictive power. So there's certain things you do, you know, in the process that increase your predictive power, your probability.

Joel: So if you use an assessment, your probability goes up. If you use the, the proper role, play the proper one, it goes up. If you use an interview, it goes up. So we know what those are. But again, if my process is really complex, it doesn't matter how good they're, my hiring manager's not gonna use it because it doesn't, it's too complex and it doesn't really create value for them.

Joel: And that means clicks. You, you, you gotta set these up. You have to understand the science behind what you're using. Uh, but you also have to set up your technology so that people actually use it. I mean, that's a simple concept. And by the way, uh, business psychologists like me, like complexity also, you know, [00:43:00] I have to constantly fight my own profession and go, you know, don't you want people to use your assessment?

Joel: It is, of course. Well then why do you, why do you make them click 10 times to get the report? That doesn't make a lot of sense. 'cause that's the most important part, you know, for them is for them to see the report and you make it really difficult for them to see it. That doesn't make sense, you know, to me, you know, if you want people to use it, you should make it, make it simple.

Joel: And then they can see the value and they go, wow, I need to use more of this. It's pretty simple, but, you know, psychologists are not that, you know, not that, uh, 

Mehmet: yeah. But you know, I, I, I started to remember, you know, when I used to, to apply for jobs like years ago, um. And people, they were saying like, you are very selective.

Mehmet: So yeah. Without mentioning names, if I hit on a, um, company career website where they have these kinds of questions Yeah. And they are like [00:44:00] very long, boring, uh, small font. Yeah. Um, you know, like it used to give me a depression and I used to say, you know what? I, I don't want to be working there because it seems like these guys, they have a lot of complexities.

Joel: Yes. 

Mehmet: Yeah. And I, and people used to, used to say, Hey, like, you're very selective. Like you no, like, let's say big, let's say blue chip company and you know, this is the place should be. I said, no, no, no, no, no. Thank you very much. Because if they hiring process starts like this. Yes. This gave, this gave me like a negative vibes.

Mehmet: Right. So I can Exactly, I can, I can relate a lot with this Joel. Uh. So as we are coming, you know, to close to, to, to the end, I want you, you know, kind of final maybe words from you about this perception and reality Yeah. In regarding this topic. And of course like how we can, you know, get engaged and, you know, reach out to you.

Joel: Yeah. Well you got me talking about the other, [00:45:00] my other passion, which is, you know, my helping people companies make better, you know, better hires, uh, you know. But, but what we found, you know, as we're helping a lot of companies build these profiles, um, and for different roles, you know, executives, uh, sales, uh, individuals, you know, hr, you know it, you know, folks, what we found is that there is, there is one, uh, skill that tend to differentiate the really outstanding performers versus even the average performers.

Joel: I. Or slightly above performance. And there's one thing, and it's their perception of reality. And you know, everybody says perception is reality. And for some reason they, they think that's true. And it, the reality is it is not true. Uh, it is your reality. And you can even get people to admit, yes, it's my reality.

Joel: Um, but if it's [00:46:00] what happens, whatever your reality is, is the way you behave. I can get people to admit that. Yeah, absolutely. It's my perception of reality. It's my reality, and yes, it's gonna drive what I do. And I'm, I'm always asking, are you sure your perception of reality is correct? How do you know it's correct?

Joel: What if you're way off? Well, what you do is way off. So there's just some people, and those are the very excellent performers. I, I challenge you to look at all of your, you know, your, whoever your employees are, whether it's sales or executives, and see if their perception of reality is just a little bit closer, and you can tell by the way they're talking, right?

Joel: They, they just have a better understanding of what's happening in that conversation or in that meeting, or when you're, you know, trying to, just in general, just talking to them. They just have a better grasp. And I don't know how many times I've sat around a, a room and. I just sort of realized like, [00:47:00] wow, that person has a better idea of what is really happening than I do.

Joel: And they're like, you know, this is what happened in the past, and because this is what happened in the past, I know this is what's happening, and because this is happening, I have a decent idea of what's gonna happen in the future. They just pay attention to that information so they have a better view of what's really going on, and if they have a better view of what's going on, they have a better chance of doing well.

Joel: 'cause you know, like in a sales process, if you, if you believe you're the first, you're leading the sales process, but you're actually the fifth, then you're gonna behave like you're the first and you're gonna just derail your, your sale. 'cause you think you're, you know, you're the first, so you behave like you're the first, uh, that happens with everything.

Joel: Executives, uh, where technology folks, you know for sure. Um, but the. I guess the, the good thing is that it's a skill [00:48:00] that you can go from whatever your perception is to reality. And, uh, what we've done, and maybe this is another, another podcast, but we've, we've, uh, I've actually created a, um, kind of an acronym I guess.

Joel: And, you know, I, I play a, my wife and I play a lot of poker, uh, and she's a much better poker player than I am, by the way. And I'm just, I'm just sort of average, but what I. I did look around and, you know, I got into it and just read a lot of books and they were, you know, the, the masters of going from perception to reality are the masters in poker.

Joel: They are masters of going from whatever perception is to the actual reality. And some people are so good they can tell you where your cards are without even seeing them, without even, you know, if you're watching the poker, you know. On TV or whatever. Some people are going, I think you have an Ace King, and the other person's going, holy smokes.

Joel: They, how do they [00:49:00] have an Ace King is because of that, right? They, they do certain things to figure out, you know, what it is that you have. So they do these five things and it's, uh, it's P-O-K-E-R essentially. So these are the skills that you can do to go from perception to actual reality. Number one. The p is that, uh, they, they play the player.

Joel: Not the cards. Like, it doesn't really matter what cards they're holding. Uh, they're sort of behaving based on who you are and based on who, uh, what you've done in the past. And they know that two months ago you acted this way when you had the same exact hand, uh, or three months ago you did the same thing.

Joel: So, um, the people who are good at understanding reality have a sense of what that is. They kind of know. Who you are. They know who the other team, team members are, especially in sales. And you gotta know who that is. 'cause once you know that, then I know how to behave. [00:50:00] I have a better idea of why you're doing what you're doing, right?

Joel: Why you're talking to me the way you're talking to me, kind of thing. Okay, that's two. So it doesn't necessarily matter how in a sales process, how great your solution is. It's pretty good. You don't do that. You, you actually play the, the individuals that are in that, in that, um, conversation. Same with an executive.

Joel: Okay. Uh, o is, um, in poker there's a, there's a thing called uh, tilt. Getting on tilt. That means if, uh, you and a hand and somebody has a 1% chance of beating you. 'cause they just need one card on the last card and they get the one card. That'll spin you out of control. You just go on what's called on tilt, right?

Joel: So for us, you have to know one, what triggers you to do that spiral in? Number two, understand when you're in that, to get out of that as quickly as possible. Because whatever you do when [00:51:00] you're in that spiral and it's sad to look at, and frankly, I've been there myself where I'm on till and I'm just making horrible decisions.

Joel: You know, but the pros around you are going, Joel's on tilt. I'm gonna push him 'cause he's gonna make some bad decisions, right? So I have to know one, oh, that killed me. And then two, I gotta get outta that quickly. That's, that's OK is that you have to know, your table image is have to know what other people think of you.

Joel: When you do that, then you have a better understanding of why they're acting the way they are towards you and why they're saying what they're saying towards you. Because they could be saying the same thing to one of your colleagues, but it means different. So the same exact thing that they're doing with your colleague they're doing to you means something different because they think of you in a certain way.

Joel: What do they think? You're, you're just, uh, uh, you're nuts. You're, you know, you're, you have no, you have no idea. [00:52:00] So everything they do is gonna be based on that, right? 'cause that's, that's what they believe, right? You're not, you know, whatever, whatever they do, whatever they say is gonna impact that, because that's the way we believe about.

Joel: So it's a, it's a holding up the mirror, but you should know what that is at all times. Right? And it's hard, right? Sometimes, like I, you know, you're creating a perception or it's hard, but the reality is you are, people are making, uh, assumptions and impressions about you. You should have a decent idea of what those are.

Joel: Uh, number, uh, the E is actually a. Exert pressure, like in poker, exerting pressure is much, much better than sitting back. So my wife is really good at this. She's, she's like, okay with, uh, just pushing money in and letting you make the decision, like, you know, you know, she could be bluffing, she could be not, who knows?

Joel: But she knows that you're kind of iffy 'cause she's watching you and she's gonna [00:53:00] push out money and just wait for you to make that decision. She's okay with pushing you. So in whatever you do, action is much, much better and even better focused action is the way to do it. Uh, the r by the way, is you have to learn how to read your own hand.

Joel: Like you have to actually know that ACEs are, you know, the, the best whatever initially. But then when the cards come up, all of a sudden that probability changes because something just happened. Same thing in life, same thing in sales. You think you're leading today and then the client does something and all of a sudden your probability is different now, and then something else happens.

Joel: Now the probability is now different. You have to know just in general that your perception is a little off. You have to know that, and then you have to do one of those things, the P, the O, the KE, or the r. To get you back [00:54:00] to that reality. Now, it's easier said than done, by the way. Uh, but it is a trip. It is a, it is a, you know, skill, you know, some of it's nature, but you can actually do something about it to get you, you know, to get you there, 

Mehmet: right?

Mehmet: Uh, it's, it's really. I like, you know, when, when things goes this direction. Philosophical, I would say. And, and psychology. Yeah. Uh, plus hiring because Yeah. Uh, although like I may, you know, as I told you, tech by trade. Yeah. Uh, but. Uh, what I have discovered, especially the past, you know, two years speaking to people doing this podcast, it's all about the human interactions, right?

Mehmet: Yeah. So, yeah. Um, and what you just mentioned, and, you know, the mindset of having the poker players, it looks like the poker, poker player mindset is Yeah. Uh, applicable in many things in life. That's right. I, I'm not, uh, promoting gambling guys, but, [00:55:00] um, so, so the same thing, you know, when, when. Especially because, you know, I studied a lot about, for example, also like how VC works, right?

Mehmet: So, and yeah, so, so they, they apply kind of a poker player mindset, taking risks. Yeah. And, you know, being able to read the other side. So I, I, I believe everything is interconnected, right? Yeah. So, and your work here, Joel, is really. Uh, you know, out stands behind the noise, I would say. And I've seen something on your website.

Mehmet: Yeah. Which also attracted me about, you know, all the bs, which are like other people talks about. Yeah. And, and getting to the real things. And this is, yeah. At the end, um, what I liked about, you know, what, what you just, you know, the similarities that you just mentioned. Yeah. It all, it all comes back to, to the benefit of the company and making money and making everyone successful, which is Yeah.

Mehmet: To me, like really? You know, this is what we should be always, uh, doing. Um, how people can get in touch and, and, you know, start, [00:56:00] uh, you know, this, this transformation journey to, well, the quick way 

Joel: is to go to LinkedIn. If you're, you know, on LinkedIn it's, you know, you just, uh, type in Joel Quintella, you know, J-O-E-L-Q-U-I-N-T-E-L-A is probably the fastest way to get ahold of me.

Joel: Um, yeah, just connect with me and I'll, you know, I'll, I'll reach out and. See if you wanna, you know, learn more about, you know, this stuff, especially perception of reality. 

Mehmet: Yeah. Well 

Joel: it's a, it's a, it's, it's one of the, uh, best, uh, predictors of performance no matter where you are, you know? Yeah. 

Mehmet: It's, it's, it's, it's thought provoking, honestly.

Mehmet: And, uh, yeah, to me, like as you, maybe you notice like, and maybe the audience would notice that. Yeah. A lot of things started to come to my mind while you're speaking. 'cause I start to relate, oh. Yeah, it should be the way that we have been looking at, uh, all the time. Um, you know, it's, 

Joel: it's pretty straightforward, you know, even my wife comes and she's, she's really good at poker, but less [00:57:00] okay in real life, you know, so she doesn't actually translate what she does in poker to sometimes real life.

Joel: And sometimes, you know, she'll come and say, Hey, listen, you know, my, you know, my whatever said this and whatever said this. And I'm always saying, well, isn't that what she usually does? Doesn't she say that all the time in this situation? And my wife go, yeah, yeah, she does. Well then what she's doing, exactly what she should be doing.

Joel: If she doesn't do that, something is wrong. Right. Kind of thing. But everyday life, you know, this is, you know, you know, you, you have to know that you have an understanding of reality. And if you don't, you need to, you know, do whatever you can to get there. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Absolutely, Joel. It was really a, a, a very, uh, good time that, uh, yeah, I have spent today, you know, talking to you and, uh, learning a lot from you.

Mehmet: Yeah. For the audience, they don't need to go and search. I will make the life easy. I gonna make, I put the link for your link in the profile and the website also in [00:58:00] the show notes if they are listening on their favorite podcasting, uh, app and. If they're watching this on YouTube, they'll find the description.

Mehmet: So thank you, Joel, very, very, very much for, for the time today. Thank you. Yeah. And this is for the audience. Before we close, just, I'm gonna do my short closing. This is for the audience, guys. If this is your first time, you're listening to me or watching us, thank you very much. Uh, I hope you enjoyed, please do subscribe, and of course share it with your friends and colleagues, and if you are one of the fans that keeps coming and send me their feedback.

Mehmet: Thank you. Very, very, very much like this year. We are doing really good, uh, on the top 200 charts globally. We are entering multiple countries at the same time and also we've been selected as one of the most listened podcasts in in Dubai, which is also an honor that I had all because of the support of you and as is always.

Mehmet: Thank you very much for tuning in. We'll be again very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye. 

Joel: Amazing. 

Mehmet: Yeah. [00:59:00]